Episode 167: Talking the Page Builder Summit With Nathan Wrigley

Show Summary

In this episode Rob Cairns sits down with Nathan Wrigley to talk about the page builder summitt.

Show Hightlights:

Why the Page Builder Summit?
Lessons learned doing the summit.
Preperation required to do the summit.
Live vs pre recorded talks.
The challenge of doing live talks.

Show Notes

00:00

Hey everybody, Robert Cairns here. I’m here with Nathan Wrigley today, and we’re gonna talk about kind of break down the page builder Summit. How are you today, Nathan?

00:09

Hello, I am very good. How are you, Rob?

00:12

I’m really good today. It’s always a pleasure. Usually we’re connecting on your podcasts, WP builds or Facebook or Twitter or somewhere else. So it was about time I had you on this platform. Well,

00:24

I am very happy to be here. Thank you.

00:27

Oh, my pleasure. So what I felt we do is we kind of break down you’ve had kind of a week to think about the Page Builder summer. And I should preface and say this was the summit we did you did for WordPress users. But that said the concepts could be applied to any type of Summit. How did you think the summit went overall? First of all,

00:51

first thing I should say is that it’s definitely plural. It isn’t me that did it. I do it with with Anshan LaRue, who is a friend of mine, that I that is in the WordPress community that I met in real life. And then we connected and decided to do it together three summits ago now. And in all honesty, and this is not me being sort of self deprecating, and all honestly, she is the She’s the brains behind the majority of it. She’s the expert. And so anything that I say is largely secondhand knowledge from her. So there is a caveat with all that I’m about to say she she does most of the heavy lifting, and I just sort of takes credit, which is not ideal, but that’s the way it is. In terms of your question, how did it go? It went really well, we had absolutely loads of people showing up lots of engagement. I guess that’s the measure, from my perspective. Are the other people who are attending? Are they plentiful? Are they happy? Do they appear to be engaging? Are they asking questions and coming into our Facebook group, which is something that we do? And flip side also on the other side? Are the other sponsors happy the people who have provided finance to make the whole thing happen? And I think in most cases, the answer will be yes. So I’m very happy.

02:11

That’s really great to hear Nathan knighted. This time around. I think I caught somewhere between eight and 10 sessions, including a dreadful one on the Friday at 4am. Eastern time, because I decided to catch it live. And we were you and I were talking about that before and you said Poor me. And I said, Well, if it’s worth getting up for I’ll get up forwards. I caught a couple live sessions, including the panels that you and Paul wasted did with Brian Gardner and with NEC. And I should tell you, that one spun into a nother podcast episode, Brian and I had a further conversation coming out of that. So thank you for that reading and reading. We steal that.

03:03

Oh, I mean, the unexpected consequences. That is a really nice part of it all. Lots of lots of little things do happen. I don’t really frequent social media all that much anymore. Used to do a lot more but it I’ve been told that it did spawned spin off some conversations on various different platforms. And for that I am really grateful. So the fact that that was unexpected, you know, I didn’t imagine that you when Brian Gardner would be hooking up off the back of it. But there you go. That’s fabulous.

03:32

Yeah. And Brian, for all he’s done in the in the community and done for WordPress over the years I’ve always admired and others one of the dark tones reached out and said, Let’s continue the conversation. You want to continue. So we did so that that went really well. There was I personally did all the anything to do with box. I can’t. So that was probably eight to 10 box sessions. I did catch David McCann’s page builder, round up session, which I really enjoyed. Yeah, but And David’s really good at what he does. So that’s, that’s good. But all in all, I thought the format went really well, to be honest with you.

04:18

Yeah. So the way it works from our side is that we, we have all the sessions, well, not every session, but the vast majority of the sessions are pre recorded. And you you show up, you look at the schedule page. So you sign up you you get alerted by email when things are happening, and that includes where the sheduled pages and so on and so forth. And then you go to the schedule page, discover when things are on. And if you wish to be a part of the chat with the person actually presenting. So in this case, maybe I don’t know Brian gardener or anybody else that you chose, you would turn up in the first hour that it’s live, and then the chat is there and the presenters All commit to come for that first hour, you know, occasionally there’s a hiccup there and something goes wrong in their life and they’re not able to make it. But so far Touchwood so good. And you just click the play button, the video is available for 24 hours, so you don’t have to show up live. And we feel this is a good model because it allows all of the presenters to create the best version of their talk. Now, they’ve got weeks and months, in some cases, to pontificate and ruminate on it and give us their best version. And actually, in some cases, it’s quite interesting. A few of the presentations over the years have been submitted to us. And then they’ve asked for it to be given back because they’ve got a they’ve had a slightly different idea and some aspect that they’d recorded is now no longer what they want to show. And so they they asked to first pull that one and they submit a second version. And we’ve done that a few times.

05:56

Yeah, the I think going not doing them all live kind of helps the versatility of the summit that way that you can throw it out there. You can say here it is, most of the ones I watched were pretty clean, there was no tech glitches in them. Now it takes a little bit to do that, with technology to say, Okay, make this available only for 24 hours. But you know, that’s behind the scenes working stuff. But I think going that route is a really good way to do it to be honest, well,

06:33

and some of the presenters are very hard to describe it that they would rather not be in front of a live audience. They’re very happy to, to put their presentation together. And like I say, think about it. But they’d rather not be doing everything live. Because there are some tripwires there aren’t there, you know, the technology could go wrong, they might find that they go off on a tangent and the time is running out. And they discover that they’ve only got five minutes left and still have 15 minutes of things that they wanted to discuss. And so being able to edit it themselves, gives them the opportunity to just refine it and get it just right. The flip side, of course, is that you you don’t get to have that sort of live interaction. But the the feedback that we’ve had is, without a shadow of a doubt that this is a format which most people can can get a handle on and they appreciate it. We had a few comments this year where people were saying Would it be possible to have people in the in a live stream after the presentation is finished. And so Anthony and I are mulling that over, we’ve got to all sorts to consider there because we’ve got an hour long slot for everybody. And then the next presentation starts. So as an example, let’s say that one of the presentations is just 30 minutes long, well, then there’s a 30 minute gap. And maybe that’s possible there. But if they present something which is 45 minutes long, there’s only 15 minutes. And if they stray into 15 minutes, there’s only 10 minutes left. And so we’re not quite sure how that’s gonna work out. But it’s it’s room for thought. And there were lots of nice feedback around all all aspects of the summit.

08:06

Yeah, I would agree. And I know you had some challenges you were commenting in the pre show to the summit that you mentioned did as an intro on the first day, and you were saying with the live ones. So the live panel, the Brian Gardner DINnector policy years, you actually had to do quick turnaround time on that to make it available for 20 hours. So you had to do a little bit of editing and then throw that talk up pretty quickly, didn’t

08:35

you? Yes, that’s right. So it’s so if you can imagine a scenario, we make the promise that you’ll be able to watch it for 24 hours, and that’s publicly available on the internet. So it’s got nothing to do with Facebook, it’s got nothing to do with Twitter, you know, it’s on our website, you don’t need any kind of you don’t need to ever go to any social platform. Because the problem with that is you you record it live. And then you have to as quickly as possible, get it onto the website. So as soon as I click stop and recorded it, I then went over and got my editing software out and edited it and then uploaded it to Vimeo, which is the platform that we used to host our video. And I think the whole thing probably took about 15 minutes, but you’re busy in the background and hoping that other things don’t go wrong. In the meantime,

09:20

the challenge of doing the live routine, and you know you do live would build so you’re a little used to it. But for somebody that’s actually going to try and do this five, I would actually suggest to them, they do a dry run a couple of times and see if they can get the process down because we all know the minute you go to something live and then you try and get it up in a hurry. Things are gonna happen in the middle. I can almost guarantee Well,

09:48

yeah, we have several backup arrangements there in the platform that we use to go live is called restream. And yeah, we don’t need to go into the technicalities. But it’s running in a browser. And thus far it did actually break on me wants nothing to do with the summit. It broke on me once when I was doing something for WP builds. And it wasn’t my fault, it was actually restream, something had gone wrong on there. And but should that fail, then I do have a backup option which we can flip over to similar idea. It’s browser based. And it’s called stream yard. So that’s available. But we also have people on hand, in this case, it would be Anshan. She’s logged in to the platform in case my internet connection goes down, and I suddenly can’t interact. And then she’s able to take over because you know, the vagaries of the internet, occasionally your ISP has a hiccup and something goes wrong. And so we have to think about all these things. I mean, it’s not bulletproof, that there could be enough dominoes falling over that the whole thing collapsed, but so far, again, where some would touch more wood. So far, everything has been fine.

10:52

Yeah, the moral of the story is when you’re doing anything live on the internet, it doesn’t matter if it’s a summit, if it’s a webinar, have a backup plan in place and test set plan because yeah, we’ve all seen it. I know I did a show on WP builds with you a couple months ago. And I had great internet till we hit the Live button. And then it was like what happened here? And it happens to the best of us. I mean, we’re all at home are all at the mercy of our ISP, we have we still have a pandemic going on in the world and internet connections come and go. And just,

11:34

yeah, I’ve been doing this live show, which you’ve been on kindly several times, on a Monday, we call it this week in WordPress, and that I’ve done that so many times that a multitude of things have gone wrong. You know, for example, a guest just disappears off the screen, or several guests, the audio can’t be heard. And in one case, you know, we’ve had people who just get the time wrong and then show up an hour late and the shows just about to arrive. So all of these things happen. And after a period of time you do you do just become accustomed to the fact that at the end of the day, it is content. It’s not, you know, it is not essential that it works perfectly, and you look flawless all the time. It’s it is fine for things to go wrong. And basically you can just laugh about it. And I try to take that approach when things go wrong. I I literally laugh because what can you do?

12:25

I know, I’ve been there. I’ve done there. It was funny I was we were talking to a pre show about a mutual friend, Kathy’s aunt, and I’ll share with this story. And we were gonna go to podcast record. And my internet connection decided to reset right now. I was going to hit the record button. So I grabbed Twitter reached out to Kathy and said my router just rebooted. Give me 30 seconds. And Kathy was like, Oh, don’t worry, I’ll just sit here and wait. And then we went recorded like nothing had happened. So it happens. And that’s the life of being in the technology game. Right. So yeah, um, yeah, what? Yeah, one of the things I wanted to touch on that I thought in the summit You did really well was, what you did was you had a page for each day, and a schedule. And one of the things I think the page builders submitted really well as you allowed me to add each item, or each talk I wanted to see individually to my calendar. And thank you, and some other summits have taken the approach you add the whole day. Well, unfortunately, I don’t know about you. But no matter how much I want to watch a whole day, I’ve got some clients to take care of in the midst of the summer. So it’s easier to add the individual items. And I think that’s something you and Ashton have always done very well as he gives people that option. Well, it’s funny,

13:55

you should say that in the first summit I well. For the we’ve done it three times. Now. Each each time we’ve done that thing we’ve we’ve provided calendar links, the first summit, we only provided Google Calendar links. And at one point during the summit, somebody reached out and said Hang on a minute, I don’t use Google products, and I can’t, can’t actually use the links. So for the previous two summits, we provided three sets of links we do. We do Google Calendar, we do Microsoft Office and Office 365. And then you know typically somebody reached out this time and said I use iCal on Apple, and so maybe we’ll try and add that one in as well. The purpose though is simply to make it so that you can show up and watch the things that you’re actually actually want to watch because it’s guaranteed that of the 40 presentations that we’ve got going on. You’re not going to watch for nobody watches for actually I watch 40 But that’s because one part of it but nobody else is watching 40 So you pick the ones that that feel right and Anshan has done this really nice thing where she she provides this quiz and basically upon the information that you submit in that quizzes, four or five questions, it takes seconds, then it suggests an itinerary during the course of the week of things that would be of interest to you. So a simple example might be you, you are a user of the oxygen builder or something and beaver builder, well, anything to do with Beaver Builder and oxygen will then drop into the pot, the suggestions. And if you’re using Gutenberg, again, the same thing if you’re into marketing the same thing. So we were in that way the quiz provides you with a bespoke itinerary. And then you can go and click on all the links and add them to the calendar. And it works really well. The only downside is it takes ages, it takes absolutely ages to do the calendar links because you have to do each of them three times. And inevitably, something goes wrong with the shedule. You know, somebody says, Oh, I can’t do that time can I move. And then you have to remember to go and amend all of the calendar links, because the calendar is bound to the name of the presentation. It’s not like you can just say, oh, one o’clock on the Page Builder Summit, there’s an event it’s at one o’clock, there’s an event, it’s called this is by this by this person. And here’s the description, so you have to make sure to amend it all. And we’ve, I’ve definitely, definitely probably got that wrong once or twice, just left the wrong calendar link by accident.

16:15

But I think it’s a really good option. And so I have to ask the question being the Page Builder Summon, which page builder was the website built with?

16:26

We used Beaver Builder for the website. And the reason that we use Beaver Builder is basically for the brevity of making it both Anton and I, by pure coincidence, have used it lots and lots in the past. And so it just made sense when we were building out the website rather than the pair, one of us learning a new tool or both of us learning a new tool. Right at the beginning it was what have you used? And she said Beaver Builder and I said, Oh, that’s great, because I use Beaver Builder too. So the the takeaway from there is sitting very liberally on the fence. That’s not a representation of what we believe it’s just a representation of what we found quickest.

17:06

In the summit this year, you had if I recall, right, three panels, two or four? I could be wrong.

17:13

Yeah, we had several panels. Yeah, we did. We had a codeable. panel, we had a well that the Brian gardener one ended up being a panel that you mentioned earlier. Me, Nick Diego, Paul Lacey, and Brian Gardner. We also had a cloudways panel on a GoDaddy panel. So I think you’re right, I think that’s for

17:32

Is there any talk of expanding the panels? Because I know one of the things I really enjoy is the panels. So well,

17:39

it’s good. It’s good to hear that kind of feedback. And I think the answer to that will be yes, because the panels are, were widely enjoyed, we strayed more into the live thing, saying everything about the, you know, the problems with live earlier. But we we did do it a bit this year, like I said four times, at least. And it did go down really well. And people just really enjoy that conversation. The the the one that springs, to my mind was the the one that was organized by cloudways. Because that was quite a big one. You know, there were six guests on the screen all at the same time. And they were just from the different page builders. And it was really nice getting those guys together. And rather than the the bond fight that you might get if you were in, I don’t have some other non WordPress Seafield, where you’ve got commercial rivals all on the screen at the same time. And you can imagine things could get out of hand. They were all very nice to each other. And it was a very affirmative experience with people just comparing we do this. Oh, yeah, we do something like that. And we’re trying this. Yeah. Oh, that’s a good idea. And it was really nice getting them all on the screen. So much so that when the when the conversation ended, we kind of all rounded off with we should do this more often. And hopefully, we will.

18:51

And I think we were talking before we went to record about our community. And I think and you and I have both talked about this multiple times on multiple platforms, we have a real special community. And it means we can get all these competitors together. And we don’t end up in those so called been fights that we see in other groups, all my product is better because of this or my project is better because of that, that doesn’t enhance the people watching it, then you sort of watch that stuff and say, Geez, am I watching a TV, commercial or debate? And that really doesn’t. There’s a time and a place for that. But that doesn’t really help it. And one of the things we have is our WordPress community, which we both think is phenomenal. And we all kind of try and add to the value and help each other. Right.

19:42

Right. Yeah, the conversation has been had, by me many, many times. But I would just like to echo those sentiments. You know, I really don’t quite understand why that the WordPress community is quite so remarkable. But it really is You know that very little backbiting and very little falling out, it does happen occasionally. And that’s why when it does happen, it’s so remarkable because it’s so unusual. You only have to turn up to an event or meet up or a word camp or something like that, to realize just how accommodating and generous of their time most people are. And you know, you’re in the, you’re in these events and the competitors are chatting away and having a coffee together or something slightly stronger together and having a whale of a time. And the whole commercial aspect doesn’t really doesn’t really come into it. There’s the daggers are all away, and everybody’s having a really nice time. I’ve thought about this long and hard. And I don’t really have the answer. I think it has something to do with the the ethics of open source software and all of that. And you can we can open up a whole can of worms there. But my, my theory is based around those kinds of things. But I really am so glad that I fell into the WordPress community.

20:57

Me too, as well. I think one of the things that keeps me doing what I do, and as you know, I do a lot of marketing as well. But you know, I look at where the people are I talked to and that’s probably in the WordPress community is because of the people involved. I mean, I don’t know any other community where you can reach out to a VP or founder of a company and say, Hey, can we have a chat? Can we record a podcast? Can we have an off the record discussion? Can we can I get some advice and nine out of 10 times, you’ll almost always get it Maybe not right away. But you will get it. And that’s pretty remarkable. When Yeah, ask me. I mean, I, I think you and I are both so lucky that we do what we do. And we do things like run summits, run webinars, run podcasts, and the people we get to meet new people we get to chat with and that’s pretty incredible. Nathan,

21:54

yeah, yeah, I completely agree. It is astonishing to me, that it’s so good. And you’ve probably been to all sorts of events in over the course of your life I have, and some of them are difficult to attend, shall we say, because it’s just all about sales and pitches and commercial this and advertising that and the word press events, they they’re, you know, there’s commercial stuff going on, and there’s advertising stuff going on, but somehow it managed to be manages to be subsumed by the general niceness of it all.

22:28

Coming out as a summit. So we’ve talked a little bit about the mechanics of the summit and how things have gone in the community behind it. If you had to change one or two things that you know, you didn’t like, or you could have done differently, and we I’ve run big advance, and I kind of look at events after the fact and say, I know everybody thought it was wonderful. But here’s the list of 10 things I wasn’t happy with. Is there anything that you’d like to do differently?

22:57

Yeah, and it’s all to do with me. That is the the, the, the way that I approach these tasks. I I’m, generally speaking, I’m modestly organized. I’m certainly not hyper organized. And I’m not an absolute disaster, while answering may disagree. But I personally, I’m not as organized sometimes as I could be. And so some of the so first of all, if you’re going to put on a summit, and you wish it to be a success, please don’t underestimate the amount of work that’s involved because it is considerable? Well, it is considerable if you do it the way that we do it with all of the different attributes and what have you that we’ve got going on. And, and it’s very easy for me not to have the processes refined, and so so. So a great example would be communication, you know, it would be probably a great idea if I got myself a CRM so that I could follow things up because I traditionally just stick with email. And that’s worked very well. But that’s usually on a one to one basis with website clients. You know, I’m dealing with one person, I, they reply to me, and we go through the process of building the site together. Whereas with the summit, there’s, there might be as many as 50 or 100 people all trying to communicate at the same time. And so it’s very easy to forget where you got with somebody and exactly how far down the road of their presentation being submitted or their sponsorship being organized, or whatever it was. And so I think that that would be an area where I personally could improve

24:30

that is communication. It’s a tough one, especially when there’s 40 or 50 people running around, and then all this stuff between you and engine. You know, siano so

24:40

sorry, just to carry that on for one second. Also, just getting the right piece of software, because every single thing that I’ve ever tried, has things that I don’t have that I dislike, you know, it might be 80% what I want, but that 20% That doesn’t work for me, is the Achilles heel and the whole thing collapses around that 20% and maybe maybe somebody listening to this can reach out to me. My email address is admin at WP builds. com and tell me what is the piece of software I need? Because I’d really welcome it. Everybody’s told me all sorts of things about different things. And I’m yet to find the perfect one.

25:17

I have the same issue of CRMs. Nathan, I, I have probably tried 30 of them. And I guess I can’t find the one that wants. Yes,

25:27

exactly, exactly. I’ve tried them off. And of course, the problem is, the more that you try, the more basically the more time you are wasting. Yes. And it may be that you just need to settle on the least bad one, and just go with it.

25:41

And then maybe take all your all your tasks and throw them in something like Trello, or air table or whatever project management tool is your choice and and make quick up and manage them that way. And

25:54

yeah, so we actually organize the we use click up to organize the tasks that on the back end. So click up, we’ve got a fairly lengthy list of tasks, which has been refined over time. That which, like I said, at the beginning, Anshan has refined that over time, and there’s maybe two or 300. I don’t know there’s loads. And and so that that works for that. But for me, here’s a couple of recommendations that I’ve actually discovered. And these are the ones that I’m working with at the moment, they may, they may well be replaced. But these are two browser extensions, which work inside of Gmail to help you wrangle your emails. So for example, you can tag certain emails so that they pop up again, or you can say I’d like to be re notified about this in a couple of days. Or you can categorize it or what have you, one of them. So that one’s called Active Inbox. And it’s brilliant. I really like it, it’s very lightweight, you can barely notice it on in the UI unless you’re looking for it. But you can, you can schedule send, you can do things, like I said, you can tag things and make them be specific to certain things. And another one is called Yana doe, or anyways, Yan ad Oh, and it adds a Trello style Kanban board to your emails. So if an email drops in, you can add it into a Trello style board, which is obviously hidden because Gmail is there, but you just click one button, and that Kanban board pops up. And so you can do all of the typical stuff you would do with Kanban boards, move it between lanes, and tag it and set dates for things to happen and set the status and all of that. And it’s all done inside of Gmail. So you literally engage with the email, inside the email, tell it, how it needs to be categorized, and what have you, and then click one button and the whole Gmail UI is completely instantly replaced with the annatto. And then you can just make it go away again, it’s brilliant.

27:53

Thanks for sharing those two tools. There’s one I knew and one I learned. So the benefit, the benefits of doing a podcast is you always learn something while I’ve

28:03

just wasted another day of your time. You’re gonna go and find your nado and then probably discover it’s not to your liking.

28:11

You know, it’s funny you say that because you were commenting on WP builds this week on This Week in WordPress, how some new tools wasted a whole day of your time. So I guess its turn around this fair play at this point in time. Yeah. Thanks, Nathan. Thanks for jumping on and talking about the summit. I think what anybody needs to realize is, it’s not just a case of throwing out 40 videos and being done with it. I think a lot of people think, oh, stuff, production is easy. And they don’t realize the time and the effort that goes in. And frankly, the more time and the more effort that you put in an engine put in, made it successful and made it actually really treat for everybody to watch. I mean, I was saying earlier, I found it was pretty seamless. I watched my Sheriff sessions, I was probably over 10 this year. Anything certainly that was Gutenberg or block related. I watched, I watched a couple others that weren’t. And then I just kind of watched some of the panels and and I think what’s made it successful is you learn every time you do something, and then you move forward and do another one. So

29:31

yeah, yeah, that’s right. It’s been a really interesting experience for me. I’ve learned an awful lot from Angie. And I honestly don’t think it’s reciprocated. There’s not not a lot that she’s learned from me. But it has been a remarkably good experience yet. There is a lot of work that goes on in the background. I mean, all sorts of little things. I won’t mention any of them because they’re uninteresting, probably from the listeners perspective. But there are a lot of things going on in the background. And just just to give you an example, the summit ended on three weeks ago, Anthony and I were on the we’re on video call for about an hour earlier today. So it doesn’t it’s not like the summit just ends and it’s all over, there’s still things which are hanging that still need to be dealt with weeks and weeks after the summit appears to be over.

30:18

And the other thing too is you got to make sure that your sponsors that were involved are happy and got what they needed out of it. Because they may go audit this happen, like, Yeah, they really do. And I would say they probably want some analytics, or I would think or something or a PAC.

30:40

Yeah, those kinds of things. And the same might be said of the speakers, you know, they might want to know, if if many people are watching their presentation, so and so yeah, there’s all of those kinds of data points to share after the fact.

30:52

Yeah. When are you planning the next summit for that? Well,

30:56

the truth is, we are planning another one. And I don’t have a specific date that we briefly mentioned it earlier, but I think it might be April next year. That’s that’s the that’s what we think at the minute, but I’m not 100% Sure. So something around.

31:12

And I suspect it will probably be more on page builders. And I would think may be the Gutenberg blocks will roll its head, if you like it or ugly head if you don’t like it even more, because we’re going more into that world, I would think.

31:32

Yeah, it’s interesting, because in the first summit, we had very little about the block editor. In fact, I don’t know if there was anything thinking back there may have been one or that probably it. And then in the second one, there were several. And then in this most recent one, as you said, there was eight or so all concerned with Guttenberg and the block editor, and not just the technicalities of how to do things, but you know, opinions and things like that. And it does feel as if that’s the direction of travel, but we do want to stay true to the roots. It’s it’s the Page Builder Summit. And in my mind, currently, Gutenberg is behaving a bit like a page builder in many respects. And so it kind of gets lumped into there as well. So if I had my chance to name the summit again, I probably would stick with page builder Summit, even though they might people might not associate that with Gutenberg, but I do.

32:24

Yeah, I would agree with I truly believe Gutenberg is a page builder. So and I’ve had this discussion with multiple people. And they said, but it’s built in, it’s not a page builder. Just because it’s built in doesn’t mean it’s a not a page builder. So yeah, I think that’s something and a and then to be fair, it’s come a long way. And, you know, I was I was very anti Gutenberg two and a half years ago, and now I’m kind of all in with it. So, you know, opinions change, depending on how the tools change in the best way to do things. Well, that’s

33:03

right. Yeah, it certainly has been advancing on in leaps and bounds in the more recent past months, and well, year or so. And I can’t see that changing. So yeah, keep keep your eyes. I said the ground is that nose ears to the ground is something that keep your eyes somewhere in your ears somewhere else. See.

33:24

And really, if you want to know more there, go check out our mutual friend Birgit Gutenberg Times website and watch some of the lives that they’re doing typically on Thursdays and see what’s going on in that community. Another guy to go look at is go work at Spencer Forman and some of the stuff he’s doing up at lunch foes. We now have a newsletter product through a site called newsletter glue. That’s all gets all page builder back end, as you know, so

33:58

I’m loving. I use newsletter glue twice a week, at least.

34:02

I’m sure you do. But my problem is I’m a ConvertKit user and

34:07

does it not connect to ConvertKit?

34:09

Not yet. There’s some issue with the API.

34:13

Oh, okay. Yeah, I’m lucky that all the things that I would like it to connect to it already does. And so it’s ideal.

34:22

Yeah, I mean, it’s a great product. So I mean, if you’re working for Gutenberg information, there’s three people right there to go watch and yeah, and talk to Nathan a great conversation if somebody wants to reach out to you but to summit or anything else or WP builds or this weekend WordPress has the best way.

34:41

Okay, thanks. Thank you for that the, the best way to discover the content that we produce or I produce with the various people who helped me is WPbuilds.com/w and you can reach out to me at Twitter – @WPBuilds. But honestly, as Rob knows my my abilities on Twitter are honestly if you if you had two computers, and you had me in one computer with next to one computer with Twitter and on the on the computer next to me, we put a potato and said, you know both of you to both of you two things interact with Twitter. I suspect the potato would be better at Twitter than I am. I am lousy at it. So if you reach out to me and I don’t respond, it’s because I’m worse than a potato at Twitter.

35:42

Thanks, Nathan. I really appreciate the conversation and friendship Have a great day.

35:48

You too that take care. Thanks, Rob. Thanks. Bye bye