Episode 195: Talking Full Site Editing With Nick Diego

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Show Summary

Rob Cairns sits down with Nick Diego to talk about FSE (Full Site Editing) in WordPress.

Show Highlights:

1. Why FSE?
2. How FSE will benefit your WordPress website.
3. The future of FSE.
4. The future of Gutenberg.
5. The future of WordPress.

Show Notes

Hey everybody, Rob Cairns here.

Today I’m here with Nick Diego, who’s part of the developer advocacy team up at WP engine and we’re going to talk a little bit about full site editing.

How are you today, Nick?

I’m doing great.

Thanks for having me.

It’s a pleasure, so before we get in the fic, tell us a little bit about your background in your WordPress journey.

Yeah, thank you so I have a bit of an interesting journey, but maybe it’s similar to others, so I was actually in the hospitality industry for about the last decade and I always personally liked WordPress.

I don’t plugins on the side.

I even had a few clients over the years who I built websites for and then kind of after the pandemic or during the pandemic, I decided to kind of hard pivot towards what my passion was, which was WordPress.

And then last year I quit and I started doing WordPress full time.

During that time I built a bunch of plugins and then I got connected with Brian Guard.

And then we both joined WP engine to work on WordPress developer Advocacy, so that’s what I’m going to be doing for the foreseeable future.

And being part of the developer advocacy team means you get to help develop this wonderful community we have in WordPress and connect with many people about many topics.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I I love.

The educational component of it.

Uhm, I get to learn as well in the job I learn new things and then be on podcasts like this or do webinars and help others learn all the new ways to build websites with WordPress.

And with Brian you developed Frost, which is now a full site editing team.

A full site editing theme.

Excuse me and that theme was originally developed on its own and was just recently purchased or acquired by WP Engine.

Yeah, that’s correct. So come towards the end of the summer, like in September of 2021 we were working on frost and it was a standalone theme. This was prior to my to me joining WP engine in him.

As well and we were working building towards full site editing at the time we were still on WordPress 5.8 so full site editing hadn’t arrived. Didn’t arrive until 5.9 which is last month and and so.

We were learning how to build a full site editing theme.

You know we were iterating and iterating and then when we joined WP engine we decided to our WP engine offered to bring it in house ’cause before it was meant to be a paid product.

But now it’s completely free.

It’s open source and we’re using it as an educational tool.

You know we’re.

Learning as we’re building to keep it up to date with the latest full site editing features, and then we’re putting that into frost and then hopefully others can learn from it.

Use it, try it, break it and find problems.

So that and.

Frost will always be kind of the bleeding edge latest have the latest features that are available through Gutenberg and Word press.

Now correct me if I’m wrong for those who want frost, I believe it’s only available on GitHub through the Frost website and not available in the repository.

Is that correct still?

Yeah, that’s correct.

So we’ve currently made the decision to keep it in GitHub, which.

You know there’s a lot of clamoring for us to add it to the themes repository.

Which we don’t.

Theoretically have a problem doing but one of the problems with the themes repository is that.

Uhm you when you put something into the themes repository, you’re in a sense, I want to say locking the theme.

The feature set that you ship with the theme is pretty static and.

Word Press is changing all the time, Gutenberg changing all the time and full site editing is changing all the time.

We want to be able to react to those changes and keep putting in the repository.

Kind of inhibits us from being able to do that, so right now it’s only on GitHub.

We’re trying to do a release about every week with new features.

And there may be a time way in the future once we get past 6.0 where you know kind of all the changes have kind of settled down a little bit and maybe at that point it will be in the repo, but for right now it’s very experimental and it’s just in GitHub.

Yeah, the the road map to is 6.0 is quite an interesting one and and just for interest sake, I have Matthias, the weed Gutenberg developer joining me on this podcast next week to talk about exactly that to road map of where we’re going and where we’re going beyond 60, which which should be interesting as well.

Oh, that’s very exciting.

Yeah it is very exciting and it’s going to be a very interesting discussion as you know. So we moved to 59.

I know on the day we cut off, we cut over to five nine.

You were in a watch party.

You were doing some testing.

So was I and anybody who hasn’t been to a release watch party should take one in.

Even if you just wanna watch, it’s a it’s a flurry of excitement and and energy.

And having been through many of those.

Have you seen any major problems when you did the shift to five nine, or have you been?

Is it converted quiet on your end?

So it’s been pretty quiet on my end.

I will say that there are, you know there are a few minor things that have popped up related to, you know, classic themes that may have been using some components of full site editing or custom colors and that sort of thing that have popped up.

That people have.

The biggest thing for me though is that 5.9 is great. There’s a lot of things in 5.9 that if you want to experiment with.

Full site editing those are now there.

I just want more. There’s so much stuff in Gutenberg that is not yet in 5.9, so I tested 5.9 but all my sites now still have Gutenberg because there’s too many cool things that are coming that aren’t quite yet in 5.9 that I would that I want.

To be using.

I I’m nodding my head and smiling at you as we have this conversation.

’cause I’m kind of in the same boat. I know once we got through the watch party I cut over 127 websites belonging to clients.

And normally the approach I take is I run main WP and I normally say go ahead and do them.

I actually did them one at a time because of the importance of this release, so Needless to say that Tuesday night was an all nighter.

That went well until Wednesday morning and.

I didn’t really see, as you say, there’s a few little things out there, but I didn’t see a lot.

Of you know major stuff out there and that included woo commerce sites have a couple big really lose big rules sites that sit on page really and I didn’t even have issues with those so I was I was pretty pleased with handing the release and just ’cause we’re talking about the release.

Uhm, how do you feel about us getting the word press automatic team moving away from December releases?

’cause personally I don’t like releases in December.

Yeah, no, I think that if in the future we can avoid December releases, that’s probably for the best.

Uhm, I know that there’s also some discussion about doing a a more comprehensive job of the I forgot the name of it is the go live meeting that no go.

Go no go meeting, making sure that’s earlier to make sure that you know things are on time. ’cause pushing a date is never great, even though the 5.9 was pushed for very good reasons, I’m very happy it got pushed.

Yes, yeah.

From a PR standpoint, it’s never good to push a release date.

Uhm, so I think I’d love to see a release date in October or somewhere in there, and I believe that’s the kind of the plan for this year.

Yeah, I think so too and I think for this year they’ve actually settled on three releases, not four.

So we’ve we’ve already had one, which means we’ve got 6.

Oh, and probably 6-1, I think there’ll be an interim release and correct me if I’m wrong. It’s in February.

The 16th the date for 591 I believe.

At this point.

I I can’t correct you because I should know that, but that’s news to me.

That sounds exciting, though I there’s a lot.

There’s a few things at 5.9.

.1 that.

I would love to.

See, I’m gonna look that up right now.

And I’m sure as we’re talking I I’m almost willing to bet there’s gonna be a security release in there.

And being a security person in this space, I kind of watch for those ’cause I can almost guarantee somebody will have found in ** ** trucks cross scripting vulnerability.

Or something silly in the middle of all that so I can almost bet I can almost bet.

On full site editing, what do you like so much about full site editing from your perspective as a developer?

How many hours do we have up?

Let’s see.

So I think that for me I am.

I’ve never been a theme developer, so up until now I’ve only built plug.

Kids and I really like plugins because the scope is very narrow.

I can, I think of an idea, build it specifically and that’s that’s it.

Uhm, themes are another beast.

Because you they gotta.

They control the whole website.

They gotta integrate with.

A lot of things.

So I was always a little bit daunted by building a theme.

I think that full site editing really changes the game, and I’ll speak for myself, but it makes it way more accessible to build.

A WordPress theme?

Uhm, because it handles so much for you.

And one of the things that I love about full site editing is being able to build the theme in the site editor so the site editor is new. With 5.9, it allows you to edit different components of your website that you wouldn’t normally be able to.

Like the header or the footer.

All visually uhm so I like to go in there.

I’m actually working on a full site editing theme for my.

Self, I don’t really.

Know what the header should look like.

I don’t really know.

What the footer should look like?

So I just go into the.

Site editor using.

Blocks and the styling that’s in there.

I design it in the editor, you know?

Oh, I don’t like it.

Let me change it.

Here blah.

Blah blah and then when I’m happy you can just export the template.

Files that make up that design and then plop them in your theme and.

There you go so.

There’s a long way to go to get full site editing the workflows to where everybody kind of wants them to be.

We’re kind of looking towards 6.

.0 for.

That, but the ability for somebody might like myself, who was never a theme developer that now can.

You can design visually in the UI.

Not quite, no code.

Get pretty close.

And get a theme that you personally.

Like I think it’s just awesome.

Yeah it is.

It’s a bit of a game changer.

We’re saying before we went to record.

I don’t like coding anymore and and I find playing with five nine in FC like a real game changer.

It’s so it’s so easy and it’s so visual and for for me that’s a big deal because I’m a.

I’m a visual person, so I like to work with the results in front of me and it makes it so easy to do.

Does this kind of change and we’re sort of talking a bit about this before of where development shops sit in the whole WordPress ecosystem.

Does FC hurt them?

Does it help them or does it kind of force them to change their direction a little bit?

Yeah, I think that it.

It’s definitely a major shift and so if.

You were.

A agency that, or a theme shop that had your own workflows.

Maybe you had your own like theme system that you used and that was kind of what you built all.

Your clients off of.

A lot of I know a lot of companies had done that sort of thing where they allowed you to change color.

They had all interfaces for the classic editor.

They you know all sorts of stuff to make WordPress delightful for their clients.

Well, full site editing is kind of doing a lot of that heavy lifting.

For you, and I think that a lot of these agencies will need to adapt how they both work with clients and build websites to to adapt to this new way of.

Building sites which not.

Everyone is going to love, right?

If you have a workflow it’s worked for you, and you’ve made money on with clients and now you have to change it.

It’s going to be a.

Fairly large change, but I think there’s a lot of benefits here.

I know it opens a whole new space for themes, for products, for plugins I kind of look at this as like a gold rush era where if you’re a.

A business or plug-in developer.

There’s just so many things you can build now that integrate with the full say editor that you just couldn’t do before, so I I’m very optimistic it will be a big change, but I’m quite optimistic.

So do you have any take on?

Are page builders gonna go out of business with FC or are they just going to adapt?

Or are we going to see a little bit of both?

So I think that the.

I don’t page builders are definitely not going anywhere.

I think that you will probably see less kind of boutique page builders.

The big, the big, the big ones like Elementor Beaver builder.

I mean they are heavily invested in there.

Page builder, and so I think that there is no doubt in my mind that they will continue in florists for many years to come.

I think that Gutenberg is going to fill.

A place for.

Those that either never didn’t have a page builder floor before, or maybe use like a boutique page builder, or you know that was could edit different parts of the the.

The site did not.

Everything I think you’re going to end up with the big players big player page builders and then kind of Gutenberg filling in in the rest.

I think that you know there’s been a pretty strong, consistent message from core developers of Gutenberg that Gutenberg is not a full fledged page builder and there’s no intention.

For it to be, it can do a lot and build quote UN quote pages, but it will never be necessarily as robust as something like elementor. Now you could have plugins.

That add functionality to Gutenberg that could fill in those gaps.

Uhm, but much like WordPress is not like wordpress.org like the WordPress WordPress, not wordpress.com is not something like square space.

Uhm, similarly Gutenberg is not something like elementor.

That’s kind of how I see it.

Yeah, it’s interesting because you know we we hear about people talking about the Gutenberg landscape and you and I were talking beforehand and I said to, I just moved a major my major agency side over to Gutenberg.

But I’m not running native Gutenberg.

I’m actually running goop.

Berg with Cadence and Cadence Parks and I’m running editor plus by extend defy, which is for those who don’t know.

It’s a bit of a tool that gives you some editing functions in, like your text box and stuff like that.

Honestly, the big re.

You said I made that move was for speed.

I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t and it’s still faster than running a boxted page builder.

But again, if you don’t have the proper hosting behind you, they don’t have the right hosting.

It doesn’t matter what you do, and you’d get that working up at WP engine.

But I do want to say like, you know, and that’s kind of the beauty of WordPress in general.

You take something like Gutenberg.

That’s a solid foundation, and then for many people you’re going to want more functionality and then you have, you know, a great company like Cadence that builds upon Gutenberg with all this additional functionality, and I think that that’s kind of what WordPress.

There’s always been, you know, plugins and that sort of thing, and Gutenberg is no different, so I look forward to Gutenberg getting polished up by 6.0 being a very solid base, and then I’m excited to see what people build on.

Top of it.

Yeah, it it’s I don’t know like the 14 years I’ve been in this community that we’re in a more exciting time.

The last couple years than we are at this point now.

As you say, it’s like a gold rush.

There’s opportunity.

There’s optimism as as long as you want to stay away from all the negativity.

Going on and you know I, I just mentioned that as a passing it’s been a hard couple years of everybody.

With the pandemic, you know.

Notre Ontario still in this state of partial lockdown at this point of this record.

So we’re still going through some of that, and and I think.

People are antsy to get moving again.

And and and I know you are, so I.

I hope the rest of the people are ’cause it’s exciting moving towards 6.

So what’s the number one thing you would like?

To see in full sided.

Well, I have a kind of a a pet.

Project that I I would like to see.

The community work.

On so we’ve.

Spent the last ever since 5 point.

Oh, when the block editor was first introduced, you know we’ve kept adding functionality.

We have new blocks.

We have, you know, new editing tools.

All this sort of thing, one of the things that I’m going to be kind of pushing the best that I can.

A massive effort before we get to 6.0 to Polish everything up. You know we have blocks that were last worked on in 2020 and you know we have these things that have been worked on in different periods of time.

Not to say.

That anything specifically wrong with them, but you know it’s a good opportunity for the community.

To go through everything that already exists in Gutenberg with a fine tooth column and fix every little problem that is there.

Because I think that small problems tend to lead to the large community negative sentiment towards the Gutenberg, and so the more that we can fix every little thing that we can before 6.0 the better.

Everyone will feel about it, so that’s little stuff. But the big thing that is a new feature that would be coming in 6.0 is I’m really looking forward to the workflow for full site editing itself being expanded so.

That that means editing templates and editing pages within the full site editor. 5.9 released. Kind of a pared down version of that where you can edit each individual template, but it removes the ability to kind of navigate through your site within the site editor and edit each page individually within the site.

Editor that will come to 6.0 so when you land in the site editor you can truly edit your whole site.

Right?

Right now you can edit each template, which is great and then you have to go to the individual pages and posts edit.

Those respective pages and posts.

But the long term plan is you can get everything in one place, so so that’s the that’s what I’m looking forward to.

So true and Nick, you mentioned we need to go through this with a fine tooth comb and I’ve had that discussion with multiple other people lately.

Please do us a favor if you see an issue.

Don’t jump, don’t just jump on Twitter and rant.

About it actually open up a ticket so that the development team takes a look at the issue, please.

And if you want to find out how you can.

I know you’ve posted how to open up a ticket on your page.

I know Courtney Robertson has posted on her Twitter account how to open up a ticket, I know.

And McCarthy has posted on hers how to open up a ticket, fold through the pros.

Access and also realize that because you have an issue, it might not be a WordPress issue.

It might be a theme issue, it might be a plugin issue and might be a compatibility issue.

So before you know people, throw daggers that automatic realize there’s a lot of moving parts here.

And it might not even be automatic to issue at the end of the day.

Yeah, and I do want to mention that, you know, let’s say you go through that process.

You add your issue to Gutenberg with the Gutenberg GitHub repository, and then you don’t get any feedback.

That’s happens a lot, and I think that it’s important to recognize that that probably shouldn’t happen.

You know the problem is right now is.

There’s a lot of issues if.

You go to the.

Gutenberg repository I’m going to go right now, just to.

Test there’s over there’s.

Over 3000 nearly 4000 issues. That’s a lot a lot for the core contributors to get to. So as a developer advocate.

One of the things that I am committing to is to help the get through some of that thing, those things.

So if you you know is a dangerous thing to put out on a podcast, but if you have an issue and you’re not getting the feedback that you want, ping me.

You know, I’m happy to look into this stuff like I I want.

As many issues as possible to get tackled, and just because an issue what didn’t get any feedback doesn’t mean that someone.

Purposefully not providing the feedback, it could be that it’s just missed because of the.

Volume you know at.

The end of the day.

What are we at?

43% of the Internet uses word press.

Yeah, so there’s a.

Lot of people using this and.

Which means there’s likely a lot of issues that can.

Pop up up.

No, no kidding.

And if you look at it and you and I both have our eyes on the WordPress slack channel and the issues that keep popping in because every time one gets filed it gets.

Pinged in the slack channel, it’s been.

Really high lately.

So you know, I don’t think truly, I don’t think things are getting missed on purpose.

I think what they’re doing is often rolling four or five issues into one because they’re very similar and they’re dealing with a lot of stuff in batches too as well.

Yeah, and I know for myself specifically.

I’m a WordPress developer, but I don’t have the skill or breadth of knowledge to build Gutenberg, but I’m very capable about fixing little things, so I have like this list that I’m working on.

Uh, where I have like a bunch of fixes planned.

They’re all little really tiny like oh they forgot to add a CSS class to this block.

You know, like oh, I can go in and fix that so you know not everybody has the skill level or the time to to do those fixes, but for those of us that do, I think.

It’s really important to help as much as you can.

Now I’m I’m it’s not lost to me that I’m getting paid by WP engine as a developer advocate to do this sort of.

But those that are in that position getting paid by a company giving back to the WordPress community as a whole, kind of through the five for the future initiative I I personally think is very important and is kind of a responsibility for anybody that’s making money off WordPress to get back in any way they can.

I so heartedly agree with that.

I mean, I run my own agency, I don’t have a.

Big company paying me and I’m not saying that’s wrong. I think it’s great that big companies like WP engine, the GoDaddy, so multiple companies are investing time and money in this space. And and I give back myself in in numerous ways. Partially some of the stuff on this podcast partially.

God who?

A LinkedIn group that I helped Co manage to foster other discussions.

There’s a multiple ways to give back and what people don’t understand is.

The five for the future initiative does not mean you have to be a coder or developer.

100%.

You can get involved in learning.

You can get involved in brand awareness.

There’s all kinds of stuff to do.

Yeah, and I’ve I’ve actually just started getting more involved with the train team.

Granted, I’ve only just dipped my toe in, but.

That’s just a great resource.

You don’t need to.

You don’t need to know how to code at all.

It’s just helping people learn how to use WordPress.

So there’s so like you said, there’s so many ways to contribute and to support the community.

Yeah, and and you know, I don’t want to spend a lot of time on it ’cause I have in this podcast.

I would rather people get involved in supporting the Community and saying, how can I help?

Then some of the mindless.

Griping we hear all the time and and sort of say I’m not happy and my response is so if you’re not happy how can you help us like like let’s get back to that.

And let’s keep building the community ’cause we’re you know at the end of the day, we’re pretty lucky I.

Think so yeah.

Did dumb so that talks a little bit about uh, where you’d like to see fic go?

Uhm where would you like to see Gutenberg as a whole goal?

Or is that very similar?

Uh, pretty similar I.

I think that there’s an opportunity to so I look at full site editing is obviously a huge component of Gutenberg.

Newburgh Project also touches on the block editor, and I think that there’s just an opportunity to look at.

How so?

Let me back up so once we have like the full full.

Site editing experience.

In place, I think it’s time to start.

You know, really, going through the interface, how do we make this as intuitive as possible?

How do we?

Make this as accessible as possible.

And I think that a lot of work has been done in that area, but we’re also kind of in this.

Building process, we need to actually build the thing before we can optimize it.

Of course, we’re optimizing along the way, but you know, once it’s built then you can fine tune.

Uhm, so I think that I would like to see once we get over the hurdle. Maybe of 6.0 is to really kind of dial in some of this accessibility. Make things more intuitive and then I know that there’s also additional steps in the process that the grand plan for Gutenberg. You know, making it more accessible?

People with different languages adding more functionality so people can I forget the term for it, but you can have multiple multiple people editing the same content at the same time.

Kind of like a Google doc.

Collaboration tool.

Collaboration exactly yeah.

So there’s a lot of exciting things I think that we’re still kind of in that building process.

We need to get all the pieces first.

Uhm, but yeah, I’m I’m.

Really excited to what what comes next.

Yeah, and I think the other thing we need to get done is on the Woo commerce side.

We need to get some of the integration done a little better and I know from what I’ve heard.

3rd, The recent Woo release that’s come out this past week has caused a few issues along the way.

So alright, yeah, but but that’s not surprising.

Oh, really.

I think we need to kind of deal with that side of it as well, ’cause there’s so other people running WooCommerce so it includes.

And you bring up a great point, I, I think that.

Woo commerce, and I think that a lot of other large scale plugins like for example easy digital downloads is another ecommerce platform which I actually use for my own plugins and stuff.

I think this is the time when all these big companies that use WordPress.

They really need to invest in building blocks and integrating with Gutenberg in.

The block system.

I know that woo commerce is currently doing that.

I know that others are as well, but like this is the time when to leave shortcodes into the in the past and build blocks that provide a visual interface for users too.

You know they’re.

The worst thing to me is having a full site editor, you’re.

Editing your site and then you’ve got it in.

Input a short code block it like just completely takes you out of.

The editing experience.

So I think that I will see that and I’ll come in the future, but.

I would encourage people to.

Try and embrace blocks as much as they can.

I would agree with you on my current agency site, I’m not running 1 short coat so I have a.

Oh nice.

I have a policy that says if I have to run a short code, I will find a block or a way of doing it without.

That short coats.

Right, yeah it it’s an interesting mentality.

Focus and.

It’s it’s a shift in thinking and I think shortcodes unfortunately cause some other issues as we know, so I think we just gotta keep working on getting rid of those and.

Well, I I have a funny anecdotes so I have a bunch of plugins in the in the WordPress plugin repository.

And my most popular plugin is a plugin that adds Shortcodes to make columns and this was, you know I built this product six years ago and so making columns in the classic editor is kind of challenging and you have to use shortcodes.

It’s still being used by 20,000 people or more, and I’m like and then I go to the block editor and I.

Add up two.

Columns in a second.

I’m like Oh my God, look.

How far we’ve come.

These are the kind of things that make me.

Love the blog editor.

I know and and adding adding columns in the block editor.

It’s a breeze.

It’s it’s quick, quick and done, and you know even starting to do page layout.

It’s is easy in my opinion, so the block editor where it is today from where it was when Gutenberg dropped about 3 1/2 years ago. Think it’s been that wrong now is dumb.

I think so.

Yeah, is dramatic.

The where it’s come along and I have to tell you I was one of those people when Gutenberg dropped and said I don’t want to go near this monster.

I’m not happy and what I’ll tell you is I was wrong and getting to know.

That is a lot easier than getting to know some other things so.

So it’s changed in a big way for me for the better, and part of it is honestly Nick.

It’s surrounding yourself by the right people in a community.

People like yourself, people like Brian people like our our friend, Burger Poly hack up at Gutenberg times and automatic standing there.

Right resources and learning from the right people is what makes the difference in moving forward, not moving back.

Yeah, and that’s what I love about my current job.

You know, learning anything new is hard.

You know, no matter.

What it is, and I think that we can.

All you know profess the benefits of Gutenberg and how it’s so much more intuitive than perhaps the classic editor literary short codes, but it’s still new.

It’s still something to learn.

And you know, it’s it can be hard and disorienting for people, and I think that the more developer advocates or you know, podcasts like this or people taking time out of the day to do webinars, and you know.

All that kind of stuff just helps disseminate the information that people need that this is new, but it’s not that scary, and let’s show you how to use it, you know and try and get more people on boarded and to show them the benefit of Gutenberg.

As opposed to.

That it’s scary and new.

Yeah I would.

I would suggest to any developer, any designer, anybody running word press.

As a business is take party or week, so you’ve got most people work on a 35 or 40 hour week and take.

1/5 of that and apply that to learning time and whether it’s watching webinars that you and Brian do.

Whether it’s watching, listening to a podcast like this one, whether it’s you know getting involved in a group discussion, spending some time in the forums.

And and do me a favor, don’t just learn and read for the sake of learning.

Take one or two of the things you watch the uh webinar and implement them and try them out, because if you don’t implement them, it doesn’t matter what courses in the world you take you just.

Gotta implement what you want and if you take a couple things and implement them, I can almost guarantee you’ll be a better word.

Press person overall.

Yeah, and it’s a lot to learn it.

It is truly a lot to learn.

And it’s, uh, it.

It’s a big shift in.

The way we build.

Websites and, but I wholeheartedly believe that it’s very exciting once you get into it and the opportunities in the future.

Sure to make WordPress just a truly delightful experience through and through our boundless so.

So true.

Just to kind of wrap up Nick, since you’re working up a WP engine, is there anything interesting going on up there you can share in a word press space.

Uh, yeah.

Developer advocacy no.

So we are Brian and I so we, the developer advocacy team at WP engine, is really kind of made up of two parts, so there’s one part kind of focused on headless, which is, uh, you know, kind of a brand new way of building a website.

So we have a kind of a headless branch of our team and they’re really focused on supporting Atlas, which is a, which is a headless product by WP engine and then Brian and I were very focused on the WordPress side of things, so we’re very it’s very new.

I was hired at the end of November.

Brian was hired, I believe, at the end of September.

Or beginning of.

October, so we have a lot planned, you know, we really want to be kind of.

Leaders, but you know collectively with the other developer advocates in the community of really trying to kind.

Forge the path ahead with full site editing, creating learning material.

Working on frost.

Using that as.

An educational resource.

All that kind of stuff, because I think that.

The best thing that we can do right now is, educate, educate, educate.

You, know, teach people how to use this stuff.

Teach people how to build full site editing themes.

Teach people how to build blocks and and then even on the Alice side I mean headless is a really interesting way of working with WordPress.

I’ll profess that I’m kind of clueless when it comes to headless, but there’s a lot of people to think it’s awesome and it is very.

It’s a very cool way of building using WordPress, and so you know whether you’re interested in traditional WordPress, which is what Brian and I are focused on, or headless.

I kind of keep an ear to the ground about what we’re what we’re working on.

Over at WP engine ’cause we really want to be kind of a solid resource for people across the entire WordPress spectrum from headless to traditional.

That that’s amazing, Nick.

Thanks for your time today.

If somebody wants to get ahold of you, what’s the best way?

Yeah, the best place is just probably on Twitter.

It’s @NickMDiego.

I’m also in always in the WordPress slack channel which is just at and Diego.

Or you can just type in.

My name and yeah, if you if you have questions you know thrown at me, if you have an issue you want me to look at or trying to get some more eyes on.

Please do, I’m here to support.

The community in any way that they can.

And what I’ll tell you over the last few hours, I’ve gotten to know Nick.

He’s always got time for people, so he, when he says, reach out, feel free.

He is  really approachable and.

The community appreciates that so much.

Thank you Nick for your time today.

Have a great day.

Thanks for having me.

You’re welcome my pleasure.

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