Everybody Rob Cairns. I'm the founder CEO and Chief Krieger amazing ideas. It's stunning digital marketing. Before we get to this week's podcast, I have a couple announcements. The first is, this is episode number 99. You know, when I started this, I was ever sure how far we go. And 99 episodes is pretty amazing. And I want to thank you all the listeners for listening, the comments, the feedback, and everything else. For Episode 100, I've got some really special and really special guests planned. And I can't wait to bring that to you. It's something I think you'll really enjoy. That's it about that. And all you'll have to do is listen in to hear that cast. It's been an incredible journey. And I really appreciate each and one of you for being a part of it. In today's episode, I sit down with friend of the show, Todd Jones, and we talk about the WTF web copy framework. We talked about both the regular version and version white label for agencies. So please grab your favorite beverage, sit back and relax and listen to Todd and I have this great conversation.
Hey, everybody, Robert Cairns, here, I'm sitting here with my good friend and friend of the show, Mr. Todd Jones. How are you doing today, Todd? So Lazy Sunday, man, not too bad, not too bad. So what I thought we'd do is Todd's done some incredible work with a product called website copy framework. And he's just recently launched it on Product Hunt, which is a big deal. Congratulations, Doug. First of all, thank you. And I thought we'd do a little bit of q&a for Todd because I think there's some people who really don't understand what the framework is. So Todd ytt developed the WC for website copy framework in the first place.
Okay, um, good question. A few years ago, when I started doing copywriting for website projects, I basically developed my own little process a lot of trial there, a lot of air and using what's the word I'm looking for? Good copywriting techniques and that kind of thing from expert copywriters that I look up to, that I learned from the Joanna weebs of the world, the Joe Kay's those kinds of people. And I'm, you know, started doing my own like process. And in fact, I use it on projects before I ever launched it. And then I said, Well, you know, I'm kind of halfway down this road, let me build some cheat sheets type of thing, and use it as a lead magnet giveaway. So I did that and kind of launched that at agency trailblazers conference last year 2019 it was part of a giveaway, Lee Jackson made that available for people and in about probably a handful people downloaded not a whole lot of people but one person in particular downloaded named Paul Lacey. And Paul is a excellent designer developer in the Generate press Elementor Beaver Builder area ecosystem there in the UK. And he's like, Todd, this stuff is fantastic. I use this to sell. And I think he said Don't get me wrong. This I think he said a 2000 pound contract to for consulting on content. And he's like, you shouldn't give it away, you should sell it like, oh, okay, so that got the the wheels turning in my head. And I started talking to people like you, the vendor, and more CO n. And, you know, they they advised me on building because they have done these things themselves. So they advised me gave me some really good tips. I took it and packaged it had a professional designer to design the layout for the main ebook in there. And I started to sell it, of course, we launched it at a really good deal. Use gumroad. That's what the vendor suggested, I thought was a good idea. no out of pocket expense for me. And just so basically, it become you know, it was kind of my process, if you will, and I packaged it and sold it and anybody can use the process. The The bottom line is if you hired me in the last two, three years, right website copy, that's essentially the process I'm going to go through is not templated in the sense that you just add your stuff in there and you have turnkey copy. It's not that it's more strategy. And I tell people when they buy it and they look at the introduction video, those kind of things that, like, you still need a writer, you still need someone who can put words together and make sentences, paragraphs, that kind of thing. But this is the kind of stuff that your copywriter is going to go through with you, before they ever start writing. So basically, it was kind of to help myself out. And then whenever someone validated to me as something that could be used to help people like himself, I went ahead and packaged it and launched it.
And and it's so often the case, right? We, we develop stuff internally, they help ourselves out. And they turned into products. I've heard this happen again and again and again. And I'm working on one of those right now I shouldn't have time management space says the same idea where it's stuff I developed to run processes internally. And now.
Yeah, you know, and Kim Doyle has done the same thing. And Kim and Jody with they went ahead and did a course to go along with the content planner, know your users are aware of the content planner. And so they've done that also a couple of what I consider big players in the content marketing game, currently, one is growing convert. agency, and the other one is foundation with Ross Simmons. And they have both done the same thing Ross and his brand, have done essentially, it's like, I don't know if you'd call it courses, but kind of training. They training you on the stuff they use, and then grow and convert. They waited a long time. But they took everything internally they developed it turned it into a course. And that's those are two, I've bought some of Ross's stuff hadn't had chance to go through it. The grow and converse, if you want to be a great copywriter would look at that. But then also Julia McCoy has done the same thing at Express riders. And so yeah, it's it's prevalent in the in the field for sure people, people basically package their own process and sell it because not everybody can afford the services. So it's another way of helping, maybe somebody didn't have the budget to work directly with you.
Yeah. And then the other one, of course, in that field. Worth mention, too, is guy by the name of Digi who I kind of touted all over the place David Garrard. David was up at draft. And he's now at, I believe at privy if I recall. Right? Correct. And he's and he says same thing. Like, if you follow David on on LinkedIn, he is forever sharing his copyright. I think last week, he did a talk where he shared some books that he had spoken about and things like that. So he's forever sharing stuff as well in the field. And
Dave is an interesting guy, because I fall on pretty pretty heavily on LinkedIn. And he gets a lot of engagement, as you know, on LinkedIn, so his stuff shows up my feet a lot. But here's a guy who basically refers himself as a marketer, right? I'm a marketer, marketer first, kind of like we are. But then he comes out and gives these glowing review of copywriting and how good it's been the yam. So it's kind of interesting scenario. And I have told you this before, and I'll say it again. I have learned more about marketing from copywriters, and the copywriting industry than any other industry, ever. I mean, I can go back and start naming names people I've learned about marketing from going back to Ben subtle, who is a email copywriter, just all the way up? You know, I can I could name names.
It was funny, because about five years ago, I took some digital marketing certification and one of the trainers, not the lead trainer, who I know very well, I went to and I said, You know what, I'm really interested, give me a list of your top 10 copywriting books. And that was even before you and I had met before any of these discussions, and I had the foresight back then as I make some recommendations, because it makes a difference.
Yeah, and there's so many out there, it's hard to, you know, I just, I just actually put out a little ebook, it's about writing your copy is really more along the lines, the techniques of actually writing it. But I've got a few books in there that are in the copywriting. Everybody's got their list. Right. So the copywriter Club, which is really good Facebook group and podcast. Kira hug and Rob Marsh good people, they have a list on their website like 25 or something. Yeah, so you know, nevel madora, he's put out his list, you know, there's a lot of people and you'll find some that overlap, you know, and then you'll have, you'll see each person will have their own, you know, books that are that are important to them. So, I think if you read five and reread them, you're Yeah, you're doing well.
So, I agree with you on that. If you raid five books I'm I'm an avid reader, as you know, what I would say to people is if you don't want that physical book, go get it. Kindle book Kindle reader and get a Kindle reader for an android or an iPhone device. I do that quite frequently I read, I'm reading. I've got two books on the go one being Go fuck yourself if you say network, and the other one I got on the go is mutual personally No. funnels book by Mike killing right now on the go which among was done. So if you don't want to pay for books, go up go do something.
Yeah, so what I usually do most of the time now is the Kindle is actually cheaper than the physical book. So if I'm a little unaware, if I like want to buy this or not, I'll buy the Kindle and look through it. And yeah, I never use a tablet or hours read on my desktop, but I'll look through it. And I'm like, okay, you know, it's I think if it's something I physically want my hand on my desk, then I will buy that. And so a case in point is this year, there's a lady named Jennifer habas, who has a book on the right messenger link, how she calls it is basically voice of customer data research, which is a fancy term for saying we find out what people say about your product and your business. So it copywriters use that. That's the one thing that W's the website copy framework does not address, but she has what I think is probably the primer. So if you're a business and you want to do some research on your customer, because basically what we do the most effective copy is swiping what people say about you know, and so she has a really good book on I bought the first edition on Kindle, I've looked through it probably more than once. Then I said, I'm gonna buy I had some money, I got a gift card from a insurance company for being a good little trooper. So I was like, I'm gonna put it on Amazon gift card and I'm about stuff for Amazon. And I was already planning on buying it now looked into it. And lo and behold, she was having a second edition to come out. And I waited for the second edition and bought a physical copy of the second edition. Now I have a physical copy of the second edition. So I'm pretty excited about that hadn't had a chance to look at it yet but pretty excited about my you know,
my rule of thumb is kind of the same if I think it's something I'm going to be in and out of biophysical I've got a couple books for actually on both the it and the Kindle, just because then I've got the Kindle edition in my bag if I need something quickly. I think there's value to doing both. I also actually like audio books, as you know, so I'll go that route. I need to get into that. But I'm assuming you listen to him when you walk. I listened hamacher listen to him when I work. I'm I'm a bit of a podcast junkie as as many people who follow me know, and I don't I do. And I probably have.
I think one of the reasons I don't do podcasts and audiobooks too much is I have a hard time, like doing something and listening. And getting into it sometimes depends on the type of work. So I'm starting to pull up the podcasts I want on Spotify, because it's an easy way cuz I have Spotify a lot. So as you know, one of the one of the new podcasts I've been listening to when I can is the one by Rob Simmons, which I talked about earlier in Italia Wolf, who's a brilliant car. Oh, yeah. Very bright. Actually. Sally is wonderful. And my friend Sophie actually works for so it's kind of a I feel like it's kind of in the family. Anyway, the two of them put together he's a marketer, content marketer and he's a more or less a what is what is CRM stands for I'm drawn a big fat blank. So my great optimists optimization, what sudden click rate optimization. She is a CRM expert, probably as good as there is. And so the two of them come together they do in fact, they here's here's an interesting thing. They managed to get Bob Ross on their most recent podcast, the painter, so I'm interested in that I haven't listened to it yet. But I think that'll be fascinating. He was doing content marketing for us. Cool. So
so once he developed the WC app, then you moved on and you devote the WC for agencies. How Why did you do that? What need were you trying to fail and how and why should an agency buy it? Well, I'm not even gonna say why they should buy it give us some reasons why they should buy it. And UN agencies I'm going to call you guys all out right now cuz I like to do stuff like that. Especially if in the WordPress world Stop being so cheap and saying you want to make money and not buy stuff, like honestly, like just just get out there and do this one. So give me the reasons why they need it as well.
To go back to like when Paul Paul course runs an agency with his partner there in UK. That kind of open eyes like okay, he used it as a consulting session with his client. And my thought was actually the first several people who bought it were really from the web agency world, they were a lot of more solo people, you know, people like our friend Ryan, and some other people who are more or less, so they don't have too many people on their team. And so they thought this is another asset to add to my workflow. So and then so most of the people who bought it early, were a fact people like Brian, and then I offered when I did the, I thought, well, you know, it's got all my branding on it. And that's fine. And they could reuse it all they wanted to with my brand on it. But I thought, what if I made it, where they could brand it themselves. And I'm kind of thinking about a video WP one on one. And I think they have a white label thing. They go dashboard. And so as an agency, you can buy that and put WordPress basic WordPress videos in there and brand it yourself rather than the wp 101. thing. So it's a and also WP easy guide. I use that a lot. I send people there. So you want to know how to do WordPress, go to Bz get what's free to get off the off their website, no problem, but they have a white label as well. So technically, I could buy it and brand it as copy flot stunning digital marketing, whatever and use it for all my clients, you know, so I thought white label. So most of the people, like I said, who bought the first the first iteration where essentially those kinds of people, and so offer an upgrade, which most of them took many of them did, and some are doing upgrades now I had one to upgrade last week, but he bought it earlier this year, and was trying it out. He told me and he pinged me and said, You know what's the I have a code for the people who bought it early, who bought the the first one to give him an upgrade price. So they get the white label. And because he was just trying to you know, try it out. He said if it works, I'm like, you know, works pretty well for me that I want to I want to get the white labels, okay. And so anyway, I went ahead and made the white label for it. I was thinking agencies, but here are some of the people who've been interested in in the last week or two, I can tell they wouldn't classify themselves as agencies, I have had some interest from people who were run of the mill, website designers. Beth Livingston started, you know, paying. I know, I know that very well. She's a coach has a group of coaches. And, and they all seem to be some of them seem to be in this space. And so I'm finding people who are more or less solo type people that I would call them consultants, excuse me, we're all consultants, really. And the consultant consultants, the people who are probably more of a consultant are the ones that seem to be really interested in it. But I think a coaching client, if you're a marketing coach of some kind, you could benefit from it for sure. But I put out an email a while back. But really, you could take this and you know, you're leaving money on the table, you get the white label, if somebody comes to you say I need content, and they say I don't know what to do. You say well, that's good, I'll have a you know, for X amount of money, whatever you want to charge is up to you wherever you think you can get. I have a consulting session, we go through this website copy framework, however many sessions Do you think it will take? You will help pull out some of the answers you need. I know Jason Vance told me that a client said he handed them the framework to go through and they said this is great. Now I just went from I don't know what where to start to now I can do this. And you know, so you know it's not a like I said it's not a fill in the blank turnkey turnkey thing, which sometimes we want.
But it is you know, your your, as a business owner or business owner need to wrestle with what is my value proposition? What are the benefits of my company? What what what are the benefits? What are the features? How do I run it about page What is my story you know, these kinds of things are, that's those are the core elements. My friend who's a conversion copywriter, Anna, who's from Canada, who I believe she calls it, I mean, it's, it's generally there's a core messaging component to every copywriting. There's called different things but she calls it a message a messaging DNA or something like that. But the idea on the DNA is it's something you know, is vital to your and I think it's a brilliant analogy. I love it. I tend to go with message kompass I think it works better for me, but because you once you have your message All the core elements, you know which direction you're pointing at all times for your for your message. But there there's other there's another copywriters made a living off of doing this, of helping define these things. But it's it was in a different era it was for people who he handed people a manual of all these things, he helps them break all that out. It's fantastic. I looked into
the WC for agencies, and we think it's a really good idea. Let's talk pricing. What do you charge for the WC f? And what do you charge for the WC for agencies?
The the one that call for businesses is $97. I have had copywriter friends who say you really packed a lot of value in this and you probably should charge more, but I haven't I've kept it where I thought most business owners could take it and use it. And it's a tool and it's not real valuable until you use it. So. But the agency, I haven't won 99 and and it very well may go up next year. And I am looking at tiered pricing for different things. But right now, that's what we have a 97 for the single and 199 for I think it's 199 for the agency, the white label
one, and frankly, guys, I've seen it. I've looked at it, I've used it 199 is do I think Todd should be selling it at 297. Like so, I would jump on it like now, before Todd actually increases his price, because it's gonna happen. And yeah,
likely. So I, I have built a launch to Facebook page. For the product, I kind of got that idea from Kim and Jody with their planner, I thought, well, that's probably a pretty good idea. I am looking to build a community around it, at some point how I haven't figured out the logistics for that yet. But either, you know, teachable or or launch a WordPress install with one of the LMS something you know, I haven't,
or may or maybe and you know, you and I've talked about doing this, or maybe building a community and something like Google Classroom. I mean, we've talked about Yeah,
well, that would, but I still can you do community in the Google Classroom? Like, you know, can you see people and all that? I mean, that's the thing that I'm I'm like, okay, because here's the thing, and I met a few, right? I mean, Jason rises in the feast, or whatever he calls that, and it's a good one I try to participate. J, you know, it's a nominal cost
555 dot js, it raises I $5 a month. Yeah. But the point the point is to build a community around it. Yeah,
build a community. So whether it's gonna be Slack, or you know, Jason is now using podium Brendan Hufford using podio. That's an option. But frankly, I think the discussion worked better in slack from what I've seen. slack or Facebook group, which everybody's on, I'm not crazy about the deal. But that may be what I end up doing. But But you, but you would get in you because you'd have to pay one of the upper tears to get one of those. But that community would be a place where people go share successes, how they use it, because frankly, I have one thing in mind, but I have you never know, somebody may go well, this is how I use it. And like, Wow, that's a cool idea. I mean, I'm not I don't I don't know everything there is that, oh, I would love to get some copywriters, and community to who could contribute as well. We would do some, in my experience with experimented with this earlier this year, but we would do some office hour type things maybe once or twice a month. That kind of thing. So that's what I'm probably looking to do by 2021. assuming we're all still here, oh, well, I'll still be here. And and then I may do a top into your somehow where you get like four hours, four or five hours with me. I haven't nailed all that stuff down. But that's what I'm looking at. So yeah, the likelihood that the the agency or the white label stayed at 199 is not real good. Also, I can do a resale. I haven't got that on the website. But I had somebody that wanted it and I issued an invoice so that'll be a yearly thing. So you'll pay the same amount every year, basically license to resell it, but that is not what is on the gumroad. So if anybody wants to go down that road, you'll have to contact me. I'll be sent I'll issue invoices every year we'll probably get that on the website somehow at some point where it's just automatic like your card is debited every year when it comes time but probably Have you seen digital downloads installed then eventually I'll probably use something like that.
If you're working for it again at the copyright fight framework, a couple places you can go the product page, you can go to the stunning digital marketing comm resource page there's links to vote towards products on that page. You can look tied up in the show notes down at the bottom I'll actually put a link to the product page so you can go right there and purchase it. Todd is somebody got a question has the best way to get a hold?
Ah, well, you can email me course. Todd at copy flight comm I am on Facebook pre active probably too active but a lot of people Tini on Facebook, I will tell you that if I'm not a friend with you, it might be a little while for I see it. Because I don't always check the other messages, but do sometimes eventually see it. But if you're on Twitter or LinkedIn, I'm pretty active on Twitter too. If you just tag me one times, I'll catch that I love having conversations on Twitter
and Cape Cod with a wrestling gift that will do wonders and get
wrestling or or or a cat or a cat. But yeah, I told Rob actually emailed tell you after they they she she said they were interviewing Bob Ross, the the painter. I thought that was a cool idea. And I said you need to interview Dwayne Johnson. And she emailed back and she said the rock. I said yeah, I said Ross knows who he is. There's no cross. Ross and I've had some wrestling discussions on Twitter.
No, no question about that one. Thanks, Todd for your time. Good luck with the product. Good luck with the product launch. That's exciting. It's been a big week. And have an amazing day, my friend. Have a stunning day. Thank you. A special thanks to Todd Jones for joining me on today's podcast. I hope you really enjoyed the conversation. And by the way, don't forget to check out his w CF framework. You really want to get this one before the price goes up. As always, if you want to contact me Rob Karen's on Twitter I'm at RobCairnst, our website stunning digital marketing comm for all your digital marketing needs. Not only do we spend time on digital marketing, business consulting, and even setting up your CRM so go check us out at stunning digital marketing.com you can email us at VIP at stunning digital marketing comm or pick up the phone and do it the old fashioned way 4166 to 47647 the same number on WhatsApp if you want to reach out that way. As always, this podcast is dedicated my late father Bruce Cairns, I love you dad and I miss you very much. Keep your feet on the ground. Keep reaching for the stars and make your business succeed. Bye for now.