Episode 405: WordPress 6.5 and Beyond With Birgit Pauli-Haack

Everybody, Rob, Cairns here and in today’s podcast I have my good and dear friend Birgit Pauli-Haack from Automattic with me. How are you today?

Hey, Rob. I’m good. I’m good. Thank you so much for inviting me and having me. On your show again.

I yeah, I think this is the third or the 4th time. And I I just love sitting down and talking to you. Because you understand working at automatic to WordPress ecosystem more than a lot of people and you care about the community and that is really important in today’s day and age.

Well, thank you. Yeah, well, I started in the community when I was a an agency owner, so, and I started coding work time six years ago. Yeah, and yeah. So it’s been a long time.

Oh wow.

And if you want to learn more about blocks and Gutenberg Gutenberg times is the place to go. There is no question it’s on my weekly rate. I think the newsletter comes out Sunday now, right? Or Saturday I can’t.

Yes. Well, with the time zone, it’s probably Saturday still in in the US or at East Coast US when I kind of put it together, sometimes it comes out on. Monday, depending how my weekend goes.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, time time zones. What are they? Is that a a unique problem to all this digital nomad? So I’ll work online having to deal with this. You know, you and I were having this problem. We’re trying to set up or reschedule this call and it’s. Here’s the time UTC and I’m I’m in the Google saying give me what the time zone is in. Eastern and you’re like, Are you sure?

Like Ohh it’s it’s. Exaggerated by the daylight savings time changes that is different in the United States. Yeah. On a different day than in Europe, so there is this whole 2 weeks. Yeah, where? I don’t know if I’m in the right meeting. Yeah. When I go online. So it’s the time of pick up meetings that ohh I’m late for my meeting. But what meeting is this about kind of thing? Yeah. So it’s it’s interesting. Time time zones are the bane of my existence.

Yeah, and. You know I’m, you know, I’m almost to the point of view, I think we need to abolish daylight savings time and all these time changes and just leave them alone. And, you know, they were originally done for farmers back in the day. But all these farmers have lights and all kinds of stuff now. So the reasons are less and less to do it as far as I’m concerned. Though I think it’s time to move on from that. What’s?

Totally right, yeah.

Lots has gone on in the WordPress space. As always, we just had a release, so we were going to talk a little bit about 65.

Come.

I sent you before we went to record. I think the release team did the right thing and holding this release back and I think what they did very well was they communicated to the community why. And I think one of the things that has lacked in past releases and I think it gets lost in the shuffle is that communication to the community, do you have any thoughts on?

Yeah, I I think you’re totally right. Yeah, the communication discussions are public now. Yeah, the the release lead channel is public on the W makes slack and but not everybody can read those through this or on be on core slack. So having a summary. On the discussions on the make. Dog is definitely helpful for anybody who who is interested in what the release is about and also have to kind of time their changes and the hosting changes and with their clients and knowing why things happen is so critical to support. Any of those changes? Yeah.

Yeah, and there’s a lot. Of good, good people out there, our mutual friend and and your colleague. And McCarthy puts out a A a WordPress truth document. That to me is. The most comprehensive document out there of what goes on in a release, so I’m on that list. I don’t even wait for it to show up in blogs like yours. I’ve already seen it by then usually so that that to me is invaluable for Mann. There’s people like Courtney Robertson up at GoDaddy.

Yeah, yeah.

A colleague of mine and Courtney Wright’s typically really detailed this is what’s coming up documents. There’s a couple other people. I think those are all. Part of this whole PR cycle, if you want to call it right or information cycle is a better word for it.

Yeah, yeah, it’s a. It’s a new cycle. And I I think the the source of truth by and McCarthy is definitely supporting anybody who wants to write about things and who’s in the news or wants to inform their clients about things and it. But it’s the fire hose. So sometimes you have to decide as a. As a user or as an agency on a how deep do you actually want to go? But if you have any doubt about any of of. Those. Yeah. Courtney Robertson was one Leonardo and Grudi from hosting A has always a great summary of what’s in the new release, as does Carlos Danielle from Kingston.

Yes.

They’re all really dive into the notes and all the and for their for their clients. Yeah. So it’s very strict on on target audiences. Yeah. Who is that important for? And and supports that through the tagging on the source of. So yeah, but it’s a fire hose. It’s about 10,000. It’s a book pretty much. Yeah, it’s was 10,000 words this time. Yeah, somewhat.

It’s almost turning into a mini journal. It really is. And that kudos stand for doing that. I I know how much work she spends on doing it. It’s a big deal. So it’s a.

Yeah.

65 We actually changes the biggest changes. I’m not gonna get so much into what caused the delay. Cause you know, we all know it was technical. You can go read it. But the big thing in 65 still is this whole bringing fonts back in the WordPress and I think.

6 ones yes.

The reason we’re doing this is a lot because the GDPR compliance in in Europe I mean and we’re we’re seeing. More and more. Or privacy based rules that are governing how we do our business. What do you, what do you think about that?

I I would agree with that. Yeah, the Google fonts that are sometimes embedded into themes. Yeah. Can we switch them off? Yeah, sometimes a a theme user doesn’t have the choice, so doesn’t know how to do it. And with the font Library, there is independence for. Users to get beyond what the theme is offering as fun. You can also download from other foundries. It doesn’t have to be Google. It can be from other open source ones that don’t track who’s doing what. Yeah, and and also have some exciting other funds on your site that you can enable without. Yeah, going into the theme to on code base to to get them on on your side. So I think that’s a real. That it opens up the freedom for the designers as well As for the site owners. And yeah, it was really a a good thing, but it took a while. I think it was the first slated to get into WordPress at 6.3 and then it was bound to 6.4. And then it was bumped to 6.5. So having another delay. On the front library. Thank God it was only a week, but yeah, it was kind of a little bit of a hot stopper. Yeah, for that baby’s feet.

And just a little bit and I think what I would caution any other designer is.

You know.

Before you start playing with all these fonts and it’s, it’s so wonderful that we have the flexibility, as people say it’s doing WordPress your way right? We all talk about that in the Community, which is what makes WordPress special. But what I would say is if you’re gonna start playing with fonts, think really hard does these fonts. Add to the user experience. And sometimes all these nice scripted fancy Google fonts actually detract from that experience. So I think as a designer, you gotta be really careful about how you do it and why.

Yeah, and. And designers normally knows know that. Yeah, it’s more like the the the ones that are just passionate designers kind of want to change their site and kind of play around with things, as you say. Yeah. They get carried away. But that’s part of creativity to kind of go all in and then kind of scale it. Back to to something. Nor, but it’s. But I I I think there is also some. So what I like is Mary Baum has a a series on the developer blog about funds. Yeah. And so people like me, who hasn’t had a design education. Yeah, can read up about what are the technical terms but also. What does it do to my? To my text when I’m when I’m using certain funds. Yeah, is are these accessible? Are there something that and then, yeah, the eclectic person can read better or something like that do have a little bit more education and the the series is, I think in Part 2, but there’s four or five. 6 Coming so I’m there’s stay tuned on the developer blog, especially about fonts and about the design of fonts.

And and when you’re working around fonts, please think about accessibility too. That’s a big issue, right? It’s like there are. There are people who don’t read right or challenge and accessibility just doesn’t.

Absolutely.

Mean. I can’t read it. It means you’re having problems accessing it for a number of reasons. So it’s more than just being partially cited or not. We have to think about that really hard.

Yeah, and accessibility. Most of the time is also temporary accessibility, so if you, yeah, if you’re sick or if you’re, yeah, you, you hurt yourself on the arm all of a sudden you’re one arm. Kind of. Yeah. That’s that’s one of the thing. But I also find that when when I read a text.

Yeah.

Online that is in all caps. I don’t have the. The help of the different size of letters to kind of guide me along what this word is meaning. So my my brain is has to read every single letter to put together the sentence. So all caps by by definition is actually something out of the 19th century when we only have typewriters. And couldn’t do any bowling or couldn’t do any. Any any italic so and that’s even the the basic of it. Yeah. And then when you when you have 15 funds on your website, it kind of needs to have a hierarchy and a kind of a calmness to it. So the reading pleasure is not interrupted. Yeah, you’re totally right, Rob.

Besides the fonts, what else attracts you to 65? What else do you see compelling in there?

Well, I’m definitely, uh, really excited about the revisions that are. Are available now for style changes, template changes and template part changes. Umm, it also is a a modern view on how what revisions can be, so I’m also that’s actually looking forward into what post revisions will be once they are. Understand blocks, but this one is really great and they the the team did a fair amount of iterating on it through the Gutenberg plugin. Now you can have a summary of what the the the changes were in the right hand side in the in the sidebar. It’s a little bit hidden, but if you go to the style editor and then go on the right hand side there is there are two three icons on top and one of them is like a. Like a clock or. So that those are your visions and you can see what has changed and how often had it’s changed. And yeah, when it was. Yeah. And it’s and you click on the revision that you see and then you can say, OK, there’s an apply button and then you click on it and then it will. Revert to that particular change if. If you say, well, we all get carried away right when we when we try to. To do our theme and and play around with colors, play around with styles and test all things out. Then all of a sudden we are kind of ohh yeah this is taking it too far. Can we go back to certain things and that was pretty much the the reason why we we got the revisions in there. In 6.4 it was a a rudimentary version of it, and now for 6.4 and it’s really polished one and very robust.

I actually was using the revisions tool yesterday to be. To be fair, I had gone into a page I was working on on my own site. Yeah, so I’m as guilty of it as the rest here. And I I took a page too far and I looked and I said, Oh my God. It was like no and I. Went back and I backed up and I’ll tell you. It’s really easy to do so. It it saves the old days where you would take a backup, restore a backup you you know that game, right?

Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s. And now that the site editor is actually your styling tool for the theme. Yeah. You need all the tools in there.

Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah.

What?

A lot of changes going on for the better, I think like.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. The drop shadows are now available for some of the other blocks. Yeah, it was available for. Through the theme Jason file for designers quite since 6.4 and four buttons, but now it’s also available for columns and columns. The single column and the image as well. So it’s now yeah. So now you can also add it to an image on your blog. Or a gallery with a a list of. Just to have a little and and it adds another dimension to to your site that has some kind of a a 3D impression there. So I’d like that.

Yeah, it’s really cool. They’re the big things for me. I mean, I think for me, the font send me the revisions for me were actually the real biggest, biggest things as a, as a creative who spends lots of time in the WordPress dashboard.

How about you?

The revisions was like a win, win, win, so I’m I’m quite happy. I know we’ve talked about it before. I’ve talked about it with Anne. Is there any changes to the media library coming down the road? Do you do you know if that’s coming soon or where where that’s?

Soon is. That’s a relative term. It’s coming. Yeah, and I know that contributors and developers are really discussing that and. A there is a a kind of a a a certain vision now kind of forming amongst the team soon. I don’t know. Yeah, but there is the the media committers, maintainers. They meet quite often and kind of try to put the new admin. Design and the media to come together, but it’s a huge revision part. Yeah, it’s it’s much bigger than the block editor and. So I think it will still need some time. All good things need time and the media library definitely needs some time. Yeah. What is in? In a very good shape. If you look at the data views, the list views in the site editor, yeah, those are good. Indicator how they’re coming along with the admin design on on those lists to have the the grid layouts and for the templates and for the pages. Grid layout and page layouts and all that. How that flows in the site editor is something that is tested to maybe come to come into the admin section further down the road. Probably not this year, but yeah, certainly next year at at one point or the other. But it’s definitely something to. UM. Figure out because now they build the components that then also will be used for extenders. So those who build plugins, those who build themes, they can use those components as well and don’t have to make decisions about that because. Those are already available, and the they’re they’re expand. In terms of what are the bulk actions on so? If you if. You look at posts in a list, you can select certain posts and then you bulk edit them. You could either trash.

Yeah, I love that feat. Love that.

Them or you? Or you can change the content categories on this and so each of those list views will have a different bulk action set depending on what kind of post type it is, be it a template part, be it a template or page or style. These kind of things, yeah, so. And that is a reimagining. The admin section, and I think it’s a good thing. That’s all in the site editor. Yeah, kind of. Combined but also enclosed without bleeding into other places on WordPress.

And then there’s of course there’s the whole issue about I know there’s been talk about changing UX on the back end a little bit down the road. There’s some discussion around that. And of course the biggest one is collaboration. When you’re doing editing, right, that’s coming soon. And again soon as relative.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because. I think with collaboration, the challenges are what do you do on some of these lesser hosting plans that don’t have resources. I mean that’s going to be an issue and I think collaboration fits really well in an enterprise environment, not so much a small business environment person.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the the prior priorities for that have shifted a little bit. It’s more like now the the admin section. The design of admin and the media library, but it’s also the data liberation kind of thing. The export and import. Yeah, there’s a little bit the focus shifted a bit since the state of the word in from December. Madrid, where Matt Malovich announced the Data Liberation project that people can. Easily migrate from or. That’s the goal for it is migrate from from a WordPress site to another WordPress site or from from an external content management system into WordPress or from WordPress into some other system. And I think that has shifted a little bit. The focus. And but I I also see that the the extensibility of the block editor and when when we look at 6.5 there are three additional APIs that are very, very important for plug-in developers and team developers, and they have been. And received very well by the community. So I’m speaking about the the block bindings API which connects which connects custom fields to blocks and so you can read them out and in and out of it. Then there is the block Hooks API.

Yes.

Which allows you to or the developer to add a block underneath another block. Yeah, like if you want to have a like button on on the title or the headline of a block, then you can get a like button in there. Or you could add another link. Somewhere like a an anchor link on a paragraph. Yeah. And I know that a lot of plug-in developers have been waiting for those APIs to extend the block editor without having to create custom blocks. I think that was a big part of it was. That for every little thing, every little matter. Field there was a need to create another custom block and with the blocks binding API some of it falls away because it’s now built into core and it only needs some styling and it can even be. There’s even a little interface there for the editor. And when it’s hooked up to a meta field, you. See it and then the third API is just at the beginning of what Web press developers can do with it is the interactivity API that is making WordPress react more like a single page application. That you see out there or you don’t have to have all those reloads of pages when you just filter down on certain things and there’s some quite some interesting examples out there. And sure, those are not very interesting to the the site builders that are just using WordPress to build sites for others. But if you develop those really help you with creating great site experiences, yeah.

Yeah, and and and like with the site builders, they’re pretty well locked in their processes. So they’re the ones, as you know, we have a tough time with a lot of them. Not all of them convincing them that box is the way to go, right because. They’re locked into their page builders. It’s a process thing. They’ve got it down and frankly, they don’t have the time to invest in learning something new. Unlike, yeah, unlike foolish guys like me, who, as you know, we talked about this with you. I am Matthias, where I took a life.

Totally. Yes.

Right. And did it over four months, right, as an experiment.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. You know, people who have their processes down there, there is no reason for them to change. Yeah, it’s kind of unless there is really something really replacing that they can do it faster or they can do it with less effort. But less less effort. Some of them are actually paid by the hour, so less effort also means less money unless they raise their prices. Yeah. So yeah, there’s a a lot of interconnected there and I. But I I feel that. If you. If if you have your process down, you also have your tools geared towards those. Yeah, like your template libraries, yeah, or the the code snippets that you have for for certain things that you always need to fix because it needs to be fixed, or that, yeah, why change it if there isn’t a need for it? Yeah. And. Just because chasing the the the the shiny new object. Yeah, I mean it. Gutenberg is now 6 years old. Seven years. Old yeah. And the other things are still working, just like there were seven years ago. Yeah. So that is it. It’s definitely a personal decision. It’s a business decision on how to to. Yeah. To handle WordPress for themselves. Yeah.

I know this isn’t your expertise, but it would be hard getting through a discussion like this. Without hitting on security for a moment because we know. I don’t know if you saw last week search engine Journal basically had the nerve to write a clickbaity article wondered and so nice of an SEO company to write a click baby article. Basically saying WordPress has problems because of all these security vulnerabilities and I would argue as somebody who plays in that space. In a major way. God. No, they don’t have a problem. What we’re doing is we’re disclosing stuff and we’re patching it where we have a problem is when plugins get abandoned, don’t get fixed. That’s a different story. And the reason I use that argument is in the Windows world. Microsoft, Microsoft patches security fixes. Every month on the first Tuesday of every month. It’s well known. We are WordPress take care of ourselves. The big vendors take care of things. Security is based on all who we trust. Not some SEO company saying we have a problem.

Yeah. So I I know that the security team is really on top of things and they have actually there’s a bounty program there and I don’t know, they don’t disclose. Things which is maybe one of the the the most rumor building thing, if you don’t disclose things, but it’s also for security, yeah, you cannot disclose a security vulnerability even if there is one to warn people unless it’s fixed and there is a what? What happened was that there was a there’s a security company. Out there who discloses vulnerabilities before they. Are fixed and then everybody scrambles because as soon as is disclosed, hackers get get on it and within a few hours they they probably hijack that. But I think the the outreach from the community and from the security team to. Those who disclosed it prior to effects actually have have made some inroads there and that is kind of really has stopped now. Yeah, the the it’s something that has been around for. I don’t know. I’m. I’m in the space for 15 years now. Yeah, in in. In WordPress space 15 years. No. What, 10 years? Yeah. UM and I always hear it’s security. Security. Yeah. And I I know I had in the early 1200. Yeah, 2000, 2015 26. Seen ahead a few sites that were hacked but it was on me. Yeah, it was kind of. It was a non updated plugin. Yeah, that kind of got that had security one peers and the update wasn’t applied. That’s certainly one. And then it was unsecure passwords. Yeah. Admin password. That’s 99% of that.

And that is never, and that has never changed with passwords. But it. I mean it’s, you know, I I hate to tell you there’s a reason the word pass.

So.

Word or 1234 are like on the top of the password hate list, and every year you look at what the passwords are that people shouldn’t be using and those two are right at the top of the list so people don’t.

Right, right. And yeah, and you get the 123-4567 and then the next year it’s more secure because it’s 12345678.

I think. Now you’re making me off again? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, man, we make fun of it, but it’s definitely something that. A lot of users just don’t understand and I I don’t blame them. Yeah, but it’s certainly something that the hosting companies or the the developers or whoever is helping them with their website. It’s definitely something that needs to be looked at and help them with it to understand. Yeah. UM password list? Situations out there. There’s two factor authentication out there and I think those two help quite a bit with with the password problem and getting people assigned to the site right, that? Yeah.

I agree. So the what I’ll tell you is right now I’m managing from a security perspective and then update perspective about 300 websites here. I was talking well talked about this.

Whoa.

Before yeah.

Yeah, but I’m always amazed about that number.

Yeah, and all I do on these websites, truthfully is keep them current, make sure there’s backups, run that aren’t hosting backups that are good, and make sure I don’t have any security issues. And what I’ll tell you is when I did the update to the latest version of WordPress I didn’t have. One prop. Not one this time around.

And.

That’s good, yes.

Now what I also what I also did this time because of all the concern with this release. Usually I may release comes out on Tuesday. So I jump on the release on Tuesday. I waited till Friday this time. So I didn’t have any issues, so people saying they’re seeing big issues. I know there’s some small ones out there, but saying they’re having big issues, I don’t think there’s any big issues out there personally.

Yeah. I haven’t heard anything, but I I also might not be tuned in well enough. For this release, it was the first release that I wasn’t on the release team for the last. Yeah, the five releases before then, I was part of the. Listing and of course I was tuned in quite extensively, but yeah, as long as I don’t. I yeah, I don’t think the support team has any big issues. I think there were some CSS issues, there were some. Styling class names changes that tripped some people up, but yeah, uh, a theme developer can fix them so quickly. Yeah, yeah, that it. It’s really not an issue.

I didn’t hear anything really big, which is sorry, which is really good.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What else is in 6.5? So I really like the design tools that are there now. The classic themes can have some of the appearance tool, the design tools that are available to block themes now also available to classic themes. And that is really. Yeah. And and can enable them with one command in their functions PHP or through the theme JSON file. I also like that we have more freedom on using background images in a group block. Yeah, where you can tie them where you can have a certain aspect ratio and that is really helpful when you when you build a website. And wanna do something special with a with a background image on a on a group plug. It also drag and drop has been really amazing how that’s progressing, especially in the list view. Yeah, when you can it’s it’s hard on the canvas sometimes to get into one of those container blocks. But when you do them on. The list view. It’s so much easier to drag and drop them to a different.

No, no question. Anybody not using the list view should learn it like yesterday because I work with the listview open all the time and the there’s the drag and drop is getting. It’s not all the way there but it’s getting better and it’s making it easier. So we’ll get there.

For different columns. No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it’s yeah, it’s the the small quality of life changes, actually, when you’re a content producer and you do content over and over again, those things really add up in in how, how you feel about your tools. Yeah, so.

I I can’t remember off top my head and I don’t know if you remember off your top of your head, what’s the release date for 6/6?

Yeah.

You know.

I know that the beta is in June, so we’re two months out, June 4th, I think is the beta first. So and then you can see six weeks afterwards. So it’s about July 18th. It’s 6.6. It’s a very short cycle. It’s not as short as 6.4 was. But it’s it’s only a it was only a. It’s only a 2 two-month window to uh to get new features in and into the beta one. And then 6.7 is released in November mid November, yeah, before the Thanksgiving holiday.

Yeah. And that and that. Yeah. And that’s really that’s really important. I think this is where people listen to the devs. We all screamed about December releases. You remember those days the first week of December and I’m working at the E cover site in the middle of the Christmas rush, saying I don’t want to push update on this site.

No, and you didn’t have to. So yeah, that’s true.

So I I think having the last release of the year in November is a much better approach than going December.

Yeah, me too. Me too. Uh, it’s especially at the it’s not only the Thanksgiving holiday, it’s kind of. December is so much distractions from. Yeah, apart from the ecommerce part. Yeah. But the the personal lives. Yeah. Are kind of really gearing up for Christmas. Yeah. For those who celebrate it or for the. End of the year, there’s a lot of things that in in, in businesses you have end of year tech stuff. Yeah, it’s just so, so much nicer to be done with that major release cycle. By mid November and then go into the holidays into the New Year and wait for March or April for the next one. Yeah, it’s a I’d really like that, yeah.

Is this is this the year where WordPress goes over 50% in the Internet?

I don’t think so.

You don’t think so? You think we’re going to sit around that 4546%, right?

It it’s it’s. Yeah, it’s gonna. It’s gonna go up, but it’s not gonna go up 50% there. So there’s so much other things to do. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s sitting around that for about four or four years now. Yeah. So why would six months be different? Yeah.

I think.

Oh yeah.

I think coming out of the pandemic, it’s kind of flatlined a little bit. I don’t think people are doing as much on the web to getting back to. A bit of a normal life to going out and doing things, you know, I think that’s part of it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so the pandemic really pushed things, and we saw the dip in 22 in 21 and 22. Yeah, we’re not a whole lot of new sites. You, you must have seen that in your business. Yeah, that there are not as many. New new customers come in or new sites are being. Built.

Ohh I don’t know about that. I have retail customers. They were all going e-commerce. So I I thought I saw I I saw different shift and it’s funny when you look at ecommerce so I’ll share this with you because it’s personal. There’s certain things that don’t do well. Online clothes is a tough buy online.

Yeah, but that makes sense.

You know that. UM. Eyeglasses. I just bought my first pair of eyeglasses from a non non retailer and according to my ophthalmologist only 15% of the people buy eyeglasses. I’m like. Interesting.

Yeah, very interesting. Very interesting. Yeah.

So there’s some markets, but we’re seeing shifts again, it’s it’s real funny.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I I had this in in Munich and probably in every big metropolitan city there are these farmers market where you can your weekly markets and that’s how you do business for the last 100 years, right? It hasn’t changed. You go. To a stand. And then you you talk with the people and let them tell you what they have and where it come from. And then during the payment process you have a little chat. So what’s the family doing? So it’s kind of a a lot more interaction. Yeah. But it’s just food. Yeah. It’s kind of well for for me, our farmers market is all about food. But yeah, that’s something I probably wouldn’t. My online. Yeah, we did it a a few times during the pandemic that we had. Yeah, the grocery store kind of deli. But to us, but it’s part of the experience is kind of looking at things and talking to people and yeah.

I agree. We we have them here too, and our local one opens up May 1st. They actually shut the Main Street down where I am on Saturday mornings for four hours and I like to walk over there every Saturday because it’s fun.

Yeah, it’s fun. Yeah, it’s fun and.

I mean. In small towns, farmers markets in Canada are a big deal because that’s all they’re social too. They go have coffee, they go buy. My partner’s father is 86 years old, and he goes to the Food Mart in his end of the city every Saturday. And every Saturday we look at him and say, what did you come home with? And every Saturday he looks at us and says. Nothing and we just screamed and smile because that means there’s a bag of something somewhere, you know.

Well, uh yeah, you can also uh come home with a few more stories. Yeah, especially when you know the people for many, many years and or decades. Yeah. So yeah, you’re all up up in. Yeah. Yeah. 6.6. I had just pulled it up. The release date is July. 16th so I wasn’t so far off, I said 18th, but there wasn’t.

Right afterward, Camp Canada, for those who can’t.

And they don’t want this two and fourth. Yeah, I think that I I remembered. Well. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. It’s two months today. It’s. Yeah. It’s gonna be really interesting.

It is berget. Thank you so much for this as always.

The yes, you’re welcome. You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. And uh, yeah.

It was such a pleasure and I’m glad to have you back. We’ll get you back. I think next time I got to drag you back with that Gutenberg guy. You know who I’m talking about. Yeah.

Ohh yeah, he’s on sabbatical.

Hi.

Him too. I knew that. Yeah.

Too. Yeah, yeah, but yes.

Isn’t it funny how how Matt and Mattias are both gone at the same time?

Yeah, yeah. Who who did that?

Ohh I I think there was some collusion on that one. I I don’t know.

Yeah. Well, I hope you’re well and thank you so, so much for having me. And if your listeners are interested in what’s coming up for 6.6 and McCarthy is holding a hangout, a hallway hangout on April 24th.

Hi.

At 2300 UTC. -5 is 1600. Yeah. So 4:00 PM Eastern and 7:00 PM Pacific. So save the date and the zoom link is gonna be shared in the core. Ripper, slack so. And there’s also a A A an invitation is on core make slack.

And then the other thing I’ll tell you is if you want to learn more about WordPress releases or the future WordPress Nick Diego also of automatic now Nick is speaking up with Camp Canada in July. So if you’re local to the auto area, come on out here next talk. And meet some people.

Yeah, it’s gonna be real cool. Yeah.

And take it and take a few stories home. That’s the best thing. Yeah, alright. Thanks for again. Have an awesome day.

Thanks, Rob. You too. Bye bye.