Episode 142: Talking WordPress Mergers with Davinder Singh Kainth

Episode 142 Talking WordPress Mergers With Davinder Singh Kainth

00:00

From the center of the universe, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. This is the SDM show with your host Rob Cairns. The SDM show focuses on business life productivity, digital marketing, WordPress and more. Sit back, relax, grab your favorite drink and enjoy the show. Here is Rob.

00:20
Hey, Rob Cairns here Today I’m here with my guest Davinder Singh Kanith. Davinder and I are going to sit down and talk about trends in the WordPress space. So sit back, relax, grab your favorite drink and enjoy this engaging conversation.

00:54
Everybody, Rob Cairns here. I’m here with my friend of Davinder Singh Kanith today. And I thought we talk a little bit about all the mergers and all the consolidation going on in the WordPress space Davinder. How are you today?

01:08
I am doing really well a little tired because of the online stuff pieces that I’m doing. But as such mind is fresh and ready to go.

01:18
Yeah, and that Thai vendor would be a really good resource because for those who don’t don’t know, the vendor produces the amazing WP weekly newsletter every week. And which brings us it’s a must read it brings you the WordPress information to your inbox. Find it, please support the vendor. And let’s talk a little bit about first how that project came about. How did you start that vendor?

01:48
Well, I was always into newsletters and email marketing like last five or six years. And if you remember, I also run a website called pro beaver.com, which is basically a resource website for Beaver Builder plugin users. And I started that website as probie weekly where I used to write a weekly newsletter sharing all the good stuff related to Beaver Builder, and it was a very niche, you know, newsletter and right. Because, you know, people try to manufacture things and I try to manufacture those things that I’m already consuming on day to day basis. Now, I’m a big WordPress user. So I said, I consume a lot of WordPress stuff. So why not just curate it and share it with everyone else. And because I have a lot of time to waste on reading news, but not everyone has, like a lot of people are busy making more money than I am, that’s fine. So why not just you know, share, package the whole thing and share it. So as with other ideas that it’s just, I just put up a landing page. And I promise to myself, I’m only gonna launch this if I get 50 subscribers. So I put up a landing page, it stayed there for a month. And I got more than 100 in one month. So that was kind of a green flag sort of validation. So because I don’t want to write a newsletter that goes to two people that’s like dead on arrival, right? So first first issue, I think went to more than 200 people. So that was really good. And now more zeros of that have been added in that subscriber count. And the other surprising fact is it’s not just sharing the value, but a lot of WordPress companies and individuals have given back in terms of sponsorships. So that was a nice surprise from not just earning money but earning money in a different way, which is direct sponsorship. So yeah, it also makes money. So it’s a sustainable project now. Plus I enjoyed best of both worlds. Yeah, so

03:53
true. And it’s just proof that the vendor and I will book tele email marketing is far from dead. It’s it’s still going on is still success. So it still can be done. If it’s done right. So

04:05
well. Nothing, nothing goes anywhere. Email is that no, SEO is dead? No. WordPress is dead. No, it’s not. So

04:13
yeah, that is true. So let’s move on to what I really wanted to talk about lately. We’ve been watching the WordPress space, I think get a little mature WordPress is now running for about powering about 40% of the web, give or take depending on what stat you read, who you listen to. What do you think is brought on all these mergers going on in the WordPress space right now?

04:38
Well, people have realized, especially the people with bigger money waltz that if you really want to keep a customer hooked for a long time in their ecosystem, and on more in terms of recurring revenue, then you need to provide a whole set of package to a WordPress user because our question is, that is just a need. A team, he or she also needs a lm system. You may also need a membership system, right? So what a lot of big companies are doing, they’re acquiring plugins of different issues and trying to offer it as a package. Like the classic example these days is liquid web, like they’ve been acquiring a lot of plugins, and they are acquiring really good ones. It’s not just any plugin that they’re acquiring, they’re acquiring really top the class. And now they’ve launched I think, package, you know, home for their WordPress products called stellar WP. So basically, it’s just like tan, and it could appeal to a user. Like instead of buying all those individual plugins, just pay us a monthly or annual fee, and you get access to all those plugins. And those are really good plugins. And with their whole suit, you can actually build a membership site with a nice or lm site. So I think it works and there’s many other advantages, it actually helps the whole ecosystem. Just imagine someone who built a plug in as a hobby. And that got sold off and he made money. Isn’t that a good inspiration for him or her to make another plugin, right?

06:13
Yeah, it’s so true. And liquid web bought one of my favorite most favorite groups di things group. I’ve known Corey Miller for a long long time. He was actually on this podcast as Episode 100 Believe it or not, he’s we’ve been friends forever. And I know some of that team just from my history from the items came from my history going back to headway days. And that’s the one that kind of started all the shakeup if you know what I mean. So

06:45
yeah, they I think liquid web people bought items which game with obviously backup buddy and you know, I theme security and st and all those stuff.

06:53
So my favorite plugins, actually, which I actually bought from liquid from my themes, lifetime deals for So yeah,

07:02
I have even I’m the backup buddy gold purchaser. I bought it like a long time. But

07:08
yeah. So I mean, I think they’ve done really well there. And then they’ve bought some other plugins. And then the shocker came around in November this past year. In the middle of a lifetime deal on App Sumo male poet gets bought by WooCommerce. And there was all kinds of rumblings. What would we do with male poet? Would they honor the lifetime deals trend? disclaimer, my newsletter is put out with male poet, I actually have a lifetime do for over 12,000. So what’s suffices for my newsletter? It’s already paid itself already, even if it went. So you know, that’s good. And then there’s all that going on. And Wu’s been very slow to develop some of the automation and mailpoet. But they’ve kept the product stable. Do you have any thoughts on that

08:03
by? Well, with regard to WooCommerce? Yeah. Well, you know, WooCommerce is like a big elephant. And it has to wriggle around very narrow lanes, to be honest, and, but the good advantages. WooCommerce is itself a very big ecosystem, and a lot of amazing plugin developers who have made a lot of, you know, I think the biggest thing that I’m missing in our default WooCommerce would be email marketing, which they got sorted with sort of mail for it. But the next big thing is still the automation and funnels, right. And if you see about that, obviously, there are third party services outside WordPress like Zapier and all that stuff. But then there are a lot of automation tools that are coming up within WordPress, like this automated WP and few other similar, you know, services. So, even though they, you know, complete the need, but as a WooCommerce user, you have to again, buy those individual stuff like this WP fusion, which is another powerful, you know, plugin that connects with various systems and may save you a lot of time. So again, I wouldn’t be surprised if next WooCommerce or slash automatic purchase is, and funnel builder automation, or maybe even a checkout plug in right. We’ve seen so many WooCommerce checkout plugins that have appeared not just plugins, their services also which are like SAS plus plug in hybrid channels. So let’s see, they’ve got money and they can buy whatever they want, actually,

09:33
and let’s kind of move this. We’re talking about automatic purchases, automatic, just interesting. He jumped into the podcast free recently buying pocket casts and you and I were talking about that. I’ve been an avid pocket casts user for forever and everybody complains and says, well, the interface of pocket casts is antiquated. You know what I actually like the simplicity of the interface. It’s easy to use, it’s not hard. If you want multiple devices, they only charge you like $10 us a year to get it to sync. It’s been my platform of choice for a long, long time. And so automatic is has value dad and the other purchased automatic made recently that I found was even more interesting is they bought a company that focused on journaling, recently as well. So any thoughts on that one?

10:32
You know, honestly, speaking, when some company buy something like pocket cows, or you know, something that’s a little unrelated, you scratch your head trailing by really, and then you say, oh, when you have extra cash available, why not? Right? And you’re also getting the big purchase that automatic did like tumbler, right? It was like, Yes, altogether different platform. And what they did is they just switched the whole thing on WordPress. And if I remember recently, they introduced a membership on Tumblr, for a paid thing, and there was a little black clash, like, why are you introducing membership on Tumblr and all that? So maybe they’re trying to monetize it now. But sometimes, you know, sometimes, you know, people not just buy things, products for their functionality. They also buy it for the users. Right? So you it’s all about, you know, making sense of things.

11:29
Yeah, it’s so true to vendor. And remember, for those who don’t know, automatic took a very large increase in dollars from Salesforce recently. So you know, they’ve got a little bit of money to spend, so to speak, you know, and that’s, that’s interesting. You know, the problem with automatic is there’s people who love or hate math, I’m not an ad hater. I’m, I’m actually really grateful for what him and his company have given us as, as a community. I had the pleasure of meeting Matt at a Toronto meetup about seven or eight years ago, here in Toronto, he was here. And I found him an intelligent guy. I mean, the problem is, I’ve heard people, including a certain podcast recorder, who I will no longer listen to called Mac the beloved dictator, but but it’s not my feeling. I mean, I think he’s done a lot. And his team has done a lot. And I think there’s a lot going on there.

12:39
And it’s easy to hate, love is the difficult part. So and you know, the position the MathML. Like, isn’t, it’s not easy. So he has to balance a lot of things like because he has to balance the open source ness of wordpress.org. And also the commercial interest of wordpress.com. So it’s like a pin, you know, balancing act that he has to do all the time. And he does it beautifully. Obviously. He cannot please everyone, so there’s some kind of hate, but he’s still doing his job very well. So there’s a lot of love also.

13:12
Yeah, there’s no point in trying to please everybody though. D You know, you’re never gonna get that right. You and I both know that we’ve been around this community a long, long time. We use different tools. But you know, there’s where do you see and it’s really interesting. There’s more hosts doing things like manage WooCommerce hosting instead of just managed WordPress hosting. Woody, do you have any thoughts around that and how that’s working out?

13:43
Well, it seems everyone is trying to do it. But there’s no leader as of now, because everyone is still trying to figure things out like, WP Engine has one. Then there’s, I think last or last last week, Nexus hosting, which is part of liquid web, they’ve also launched, managed WooCommerce hosting. The problem is, again, WooCommerce is like a jungle and you can put as many elements they want to put there. So it can be a difficult and challenging being for a host to manage a WooCommerce you know, set up because there’s a lot of unpredictability there. And yeah, people are trying it but if you say if you ask someone Hey, which is your preferred or the best brand for WooCommerce hosting, you won’t actually find any clear winner as of now because everyone is still trying to get things moving. Like for example, even WP Engine now this they’re focusing on WooCommerce they also have a specialized hosting or you know, service offering for headless WordPress now that’s another animal to tame. Right. So that’s

14:46
another discussion for another day.

14:49
Yeah, so, you know, the bigger companies are trying to offer different, you know, sub packages of sub brands based on different needs of people. So it’s a it’s a good thing because WooCommerce hosting is not easy because it requires more way more resources than a static website. But then it also brings a lot of challenges for a host also, because, again, money is gone, transactions going to happen. And there’s a lot of customer data that, obviously, you know, the money but the money, data would be on stripe or PayPal, but still the customer data is still on your WordPress, right. So

15:27
actually, it’s funny you say that I for WooCommerce. I another solution I really like is square, which isn’t available in India, I don’t believe that’s true. Now. Commerce, who prefers denic, right? Through WooCommerce. In the square, it’s easy. I could take with the gateways made available. It’s not too hard. What do you see next? Moving forward, you see, are we are we back into this where we’re gonna see I hate to say that consolidation in the hosting space. We’ve seen a little bit of that with AIG. And we know what’s gone on there. We’ve seen a bit of that with GoDaddy, and then buying a couple of small hosts like dream mode. So we know what’s going on there. Are we headed down that road? Again? Are we just headed into all this software consolidation, where people are throwing products out there hoping they be bought?

16:25
Well, I don’t think so. Because people have become more smarter now. Especially when choosing you know, WordPress hosting, like, obviously, if a newbie comes into the ecosystem, they can certainly fall in the ditch of just branding and promoted hosting, which doesn’t work right apart. If you if you are one of those who’ve done little bit of research, like maybe on Facebook groups or on Twitter or LinkedIn, you will definitely find a good recommendation that would work for you. And, and there’s already you know, pillars, different pillars that are happening within the hosting ecosystem, that is WP Engine plus ply mean, right? Then, then there are other hosting service provider like site. Ground is altogether different value for money proposition. And it works for some, it doesn’t work for some. So personally, it works for me, and I love it. So, again, I love it. But then there are haters, as well. So I can tell you there are haters, for other hosting companies also, because if something doesn’t work for you, you will not like it. And only those people leave reviews or share who were burned with it not who are, you know, enjoying the service. It’s

17:35
so so true. So problem with online reviews, right? It’s, you know, people only read reviews, and then they’ll read the reviews saying the host is excellent. And like, what is that tell me that tells me nothing. It might be it might fit your needs, but it might not fit mine. And, you know, as you know, I made a move from a certain host, which we shall not name some time ago, and I’ve moved to a host called Billy host. And it’s it’s a smaller host run from a gentleman that I’ve known forever. And it’s based in Canada and all the servers are in Canada. And for what I was paying a certain ads are host $30 USD for I can get for 950. Canadian. So you tell me, right? So it’s not just a money thing? No, it’s also a support thing. When certain hosts grow too much, they get into this, or we won’t do that anymore, because it costs them money. Like they, they do so much to get the growth there. And once the growth gets there, they cut you off. And that’s a problem too. I just take care of your people support your customers, and you’ll be 10 times better.

18:48
This is not true for just hosting company. This is true for any business, actually. Yeah. So look at the big ones like Walmart, Amazon’s and all that stuff, right?

18:57
Yeah, I mean, you say that. And for me. You know, my mom said to me last time, why are you such an Amazon shopper? This conversation came up again. And I said, Well, besides the pandemic, Amazon takes care of me. I mean, I’ve got an order right now that was supposed to be delivered Friday. And I’ve got an email saying that sell for delivery today. That’s, you know, two days ahead. That’s better than being a day late or when you have a problem. Amazon’s

19:30
that’s why Amazon is a leader like here Amazon came like five years back or maybe a little and they decimated everyone now. There’s Amazon and no one no one is a number two like no one even knows now to number two them.

19:44
So the vendor I’ve been a Prime member in Canada for 10 years now. So that that tells you and you know, and it’s other things Amazon started off as a book company. Well, I’m an audible member as well so I pay for audible so they get me there too. Right so I get audio books through them. I Kindle users so i well i use Kindle books on my tablet. So I was saying before we got on the recorders I was ordering Ross friends latest book that released this morning shout out the Ross. I already ordered that book for an both the paperback and the Kindle version, I want both. So yeah, they are leader and they and the leader starts from service. And one thing going back to a company like liquidweb has done being an AI things sub customer, they’ve done a really good job about supporting their clients and servicing their clients and, and that’s kind of good. Were certain other companies and not just in our space in any business, they don’t serve as their customers. Right?

20:51
Exactly. Because it’s not about making money from the customer is about making money again and again from that customer with that will make your rates not the one payment but the multiple payment because to get the recurring part, right. So

21:04
yeah, any any cost per acquisition of the new customer is more than the cost of an old customer. You and I both know that. So you know it’s getting more. It’s cheaper to keep an older long term customer something telecom companies have never figured out but that’s that’s another story another day. And even automatic has gotten into this with a little bit with jetpack, we talked about all the merges buying food and CRM, right they and they’re starting to integrate that more. Do you have any thoughts on that one or no? regard to jetpack? Yes. And implying that I’m buying a CRM? Well, they

21:52
bought I think the automatic people bought a CRM called no BS. Now, you know, I understand what bs is, it actually means psps. Right. So they bought that no BS, CRM, and they rebranded as jetpack CRM. So that’s the only thing that did. So it’s not they made any CRM of their own. And it’s there. It works on a basic level, but then I don’t hear it much because again, I’m not even a jetpack user myself, because what jetpack does is I can do that with other tools and plugins that I use. And yeah, it’s there. But if you talk just about CRM, I think the two CRM that comes to my mind and which are very popular and work is groundhog and Fluence CRM. These are like the two popular ones, and they do work absolutely fine. But then I personally is not a fan of doing email marketing or CRM on WordPress, I think these things lie on faster.

22:59
I know and the same reason you’re not a fan of doing your LMS. in WordPress, you tend to go outside as well.

23:08
Yeah, because you know, again, it’s not that I’m not never done. Like I say, I run a membership website with using restrict content Pro, it works fine. But it’s a very thin, thin and lean setup that I’ve done for my own thing, because I can do it myself. But when I’m doing it for a client, I do have to put in a page builder so that a client can easily want to put a page builder, it doesn’t matter which one you put, it does add a lot to the overhead. So you need to figure out a better hosting and all that stuff. So yeah, I’ve done it and it works with them. But for person for my own things. I tried to try different things to learn. Be more creative, I guess.

23:53
No, I would agree. And then and then I hate to say it becomes should you be hosting your online store and WordPress. And that’s a whole new debate that I’ll open up and, you know,

24:05
I would do it if it was a company of at least three or four people, I would definitely do it. Because then there would be the problem is like if you get a client who has you know, say five or six products, right? And he’s, he has a full time job. And he’s just running a website to support his full time, say business or job. And he doesn’t want to pay like 200 or 300 bucks a month to manage that store, then that because that person doesn’t deserve WooCommerce then that person deserves Shopify.

24:42
And to be honest with you, I’ve got a client who runs a jewelry store and your store subdomain is on Shopify, and it runs quite well. So it depends on what you’re trying to achieve, how you’re trying to achieve it, why you’re trying to achieve it. I think as WordPress People, we get hung up on all the time that WordPress is the only solution,

25:05
and is also the money factor like people, you know, assume WordPress is free, and WooCommerce is free. So everything is going to be free. But let me tell you, if you want a really advanced WordPress, or sorry, not WordPress, but our advanced functionality store, it costs more on WooCommerce than the monthly view of Shopify.

25:26
That’s true. Like one of the things Shopify has in Canada, and I’ll tell you right away, is they have preferred shipping rates with UPS, FedEx and purolator, the big three courier to Ghana. So right away, you get shipping rates that even as a business you cannot get. And and so there are, what I’m trying to say is there are advantages and disadvantages and things sometimes we have to look at. Yeah, and stop selling the technology. But selling the solution. If you get what

25:59
I’m getting. Everyone is growing. WordPress is growing, Shopify is growing at a crazy speed. And guess what even Squarespace and Wix is growing. And there’s a new player called web flow, which is also growing. So everything is going growing because WordPress is not an answer for everyone. And so is Shopify is not an answer for everyone.

26:17
And a core code or solution, even square now has a ecommerce page that you can throw up for nothing too.

26:25
So they’ve even jumped into that phrase stripe told stripe also launched stripe pages recently. So if someone wants to sell one product or two product, they can just make stripe page in your stripe account and take payments.

26:38
Yeah, so true. So I really think the last half of this year, we’re going to see some more acquisitions. I don’t think we’re done. I think this is just the nature of business. I mean, we’re talking it from it in a WordPress standpoint, but this has happened all over businesses all over the years, businesses grow, and how do they get bigger, they either require something or build something. And sometimes, frankly, it’s cheaper to acquire it and build it yourself. A good example is when Google got into video, they acquired YouTube, they didn’t build YouTube. And, and people forget that I actually have a YouTube legacy account that was moved over from being a YouTube only account.

27:20
So now that you mentioned Finally, none of the contact form plug in, got acquired in recent time. So you may see a contact form acquired by the big guns.

27:33
And from a security perspective, there probably wouldn’t be a bad thing because we all know Wait, we all the contact form plugins have been under fire, especially contact form seven, fill in forms, you name that they’ve all all the big form builders gravity’s had not recently but I think six months ago, they had a vulnerability. So they’ve all gone through some vulnerability problems as well. So I think I think that the big one of the big guns is going to acquire somebody. And once the first one goes, it will be like a chain reaction, right?

28:08
Because there was one I’m forgetting the ninja forms was acquired by formidable forms, and one was retired, something like that. But that happened a long time. Right?

28:19
Yeah, and the last thing ninja forms bought, interestingly enough, was a company called ninja shop. And for those who don’t know, Ninja shop was the old e commerce plugin that I think is developed and liquid web didn’t want it when they bought Yeah, I think they saw on and off to it. That was called I think items exchange something. I think exchange? That’s correct. And that term morphed into ninja shop because liquidweb didn’t want that they wanted to support Wu and they spun it off. Right?

28:52
And that work ninja shop I’ve never heard now. Is it like alive or dead? I don’t know anymore. Because I still remember when items exchange came out. It was really a lien, you know, shop plugin. And it was issued as the emerging baby competent at WooCommerce. But I guess some internal forces still that?

29:17
Yeah, yeah, some somebody killed it somewhere. And, and I think we’re getting to the point where, you know, it’s interesting, I’m wondering if we’re going to see a consolidation in the page builder space, that’s the other place they see company.

29:35
Exactly. And just switching back to you know, WooCommerce the strange part is items got exchange got killed and in those since then to now, there’s no competitor to WooCommerce even not a small baby convert it to WooCommerce. So that’s kind of strange. So maybe someone who know who is a code ninja can work on building something and becoming To page builders, there’s already a bloodbath in page builders, like some of them are worried, oh, we’re gonna go out of business because they’re good enough blocks and all that stuff. So I don’t think so page going anywhere they will still there be there because I as a person who know a little bit of code and design, I can definitely use Gutenberg blocks with the ease to build anything but if my clients wants to do those kinds of things they cannot do in blocks because blocks doesn’t give that intuitiveness to you know, use it. So I will still have to use a page builder, whether it’s an Elementor Beaver Builder, Divi it doesn’t matter because the end result is still the same.

30:41
Yeah. And that said, and how WP bakery is still alive. Oh, I’ll never figure out. But that’s, that’s another story. Right?

30:49
Even even the interesting part of it now that you mentioned WP bakery. A lot of people can get confused with the old WP bakery. But the new one is called visual composer. They’re all the artificial crawlers. Yes, yes. And I was checking visual composer, code and all that stuff. It looks pretty neat compared to all the, you know, big, bloated, heavy page builders that we have.

31:16
One of one of my favorite clients who I host and do security updates for is one is probably one of the top three licensed pipe manufacturers in North America. And they’re on they’re on visual composer and their site runs fine as I was just kidding, to the not the page builder like people, you know,

31:38
blame page builders and all that. Now if you’re gonna use page builder, you just can’t be on $2 hosting. Now that’s like you already committing suicide and now you want to bet then you might as well just jump off the bridge and get it over. Yeah, it’s easy to blame Elementor you know, Beaver Builder, Divi and all these products. But yes, it does add a little bit of extra code to it. But that code is being added for the ease of use that you’re having. Right? Just imagine building the same layout with manual HTML stuff, right? Firstly, you have to have a lot of learning years of learning to do that. And then you have to spend a lot of time.

32:17
And then you get guys like me who like things like Aveda who have their own page filter built in just but by it not only does it work, but people don’t realize that Aveda has integrations with other things like ACF and stuff directly. So you know, it for some stuff. It’s easier. It’s just it works.

32:42
You know, when people say, Oh, this page builder is bloated is this and I just tell them, okay, if this is bloated, don’t use it to Gutenberg or to custom coded and custom coding and burn your Midnight Oil. And let’s see, we’ll talk in a month. You know, in the end time is money in our space, right? So yeah, if you’re gonna spend five hours building a website with a Elementor. And, and you’re gonna spend 25 hours building the same website with the manual magic routine, then you’re actually losing money.

33:18
Yeah. I almost wonder though, we talked about consolidation. Now, we’re gonna see some of these page builders get bought by web hosts or bought by. So then they can offer a web host, and a page builder and a base theme and say, here’s a package, and, you know, a company that what they’re doing, and they really blew it was a company called head way back in the day, or one of the things before they got into all theirs. Mass was they were looking at offering headway on a host with plugins and offering as a package. And I don’t think for a novice, that’s a bad idea, to be honest, you know,

34:02
headway as a page builder, or, you know, as a tool for building website was way ahead of their times. Like there was nothing like that during the period. So I think it’s just some some people are good at developing a product, but some people are really bad at marketing a product, right. So they don’t have an eye

34:24
and I knew Yeah, they just didn’t have that the marketing side. And I knew grant very, very well. And one of the things I think that happened there was honestly they offer too many lifetime licenses. By the way, would you like a historical copy of headway 3.17 just to play with

34:46
it. I’ve used it a lot during those times. And you know, offering a lifetime deal is not a bad idea. But then then you have to switch over to rhetoric and at some point, I guess they did it. I think they never did it or they were too late. But headway as

35:04
they did it with first. They did it with version four defender.

35:08
Yeah. But had we as a product was really good. It was neat. And it worked. And it was revolutionary, like a person who would, who would have never used headway and they started using an ice relic light bulb moment. Oh, you can also do that with WordPress, right? So now, obviously, all page builders kind of do that because they had now talking about who will buy which page builder now if you see and circle back a lot of cheap shared hosting, always had a page builder, which never worked. Right. But, you know, if we talk about who will get acquired, I don’t think so Elementor will get acquired by anyone because it’s way too big for anyone to get their hands on because it’s it’s the valuation of element is way too high. I guess. Only the smaller ones might be on the hit list. Maybe be will only be and all kinds of those page builders.

36:05
So I would think I’ll make a prediction right here. The first page builder by is going to be liquid web. That’s my prediction.

36:12
Yeah, but which one they will they buy? That’s the real answer people are looking for. Yeah. Yeah,

36:19
I think so. And I hate to tell people I don’t think it’s going to be a VEDA because the VEDA is the only theme on themeforest that has sold over a million dollars.

36:30
So honestly speaking, I don’t think so they will buy a page builder because they already have a page builder in form of cadence blocks. So they are they basically they basically beefing they will just beef up cadence blocks to work more like a page builder or a better page. But

36:48
that is true. Anyway, this has been enlightening it to sit around and bat around where we think the industry is going. It’s always it’s always a pleasure. The vendor, WP weekly and in your very CSS project, where can I find them? where they can get a hold of you? What’s the best way?

37:10
Well, I I have a heartbreak landing page website called either Idavinder.com. And either when there is my profile name IDavinder everywhere, so you can find it when they’re on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram. Yeah, that’s about it. No other social networking sites

37:32
No. And and if you’re bored, you can get into one of these million and one group conversations that go on every day with the vendor. And what I’ll tell you is not only is a good friend, he’s very approachable and very helpful. So thank you for what you give back to the community. And thanks for taking the time to have another chat. Much appreciated. You’re welcome and thanks for the opportunity. Have a great day to vendor by you too. Bye bye. A very special thank you to my guest of Anderson Kenneth for joining me on today’s podcast. I hope you enjoyed our whole discussion about the WordPress space. Thanks for listening to the SDM show. It shows the production of stunning digital marketing and all rights reserved. Rob can be reached by email at VIP at stunning digital marketing calm on twitter at Rob Cairns on his website stunning digital marketing calm and on his website there’s links to all his social media platforms. This show is dedicated to my late father Bruce Cairns Dad, I miss you very much. Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars make your business succeed.