Episode 141: Talking Beyond the Pale with Matthew Turner

Show Notes

Episode 141 Talking Beyond the Pale with Matthew Turner


From the center of the universe, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. This is the SDM show with your host Rob Cairns. The SDM show focuses on business life productivity, digital marketing, WordPress and more. Sit back, relax, grab your favorite drink and enjoy the show. Here is Rob. Hey, everybody, Rob



Cairns here. Today I’m with my guest, Matthew Turner. Matthew is an author who’s written several books. And his latest book is a fable called beyond the pale. A book that inspires you to question the success means to you and gives you permission to escape the hustle forever. So sit back, relax, grab a drink, and enjoy an engaging conversation that Matthew and I had.



Morning, I’m Rob Cairns here. I’m here with Matthew Turner and author and we’re gonna sit here and talk about his latest book. How are you this morning, Matthew? I am good. Thank you, Robert. How yourself? Oh, not too bad for a sunny hot summer day and in Canada. And we’re just talking to you case a little hot as well. I



gather. It’s not as bad today. We did have a heatwave last week, and it just cooled down. So Friday, Saturday, but yeah, this time last week. It was melting. Still nice, still lovely. A bit hazy about so not quite as hot. So yeah, not not melting away anymore. But it’s still, you know, rather nice for this time of year.



It seems to be the state all over the place is kind of a messed up year. So let’s jump right in. Tell me a little bit about yourself and your background, please.



Sure. Well, as you say, My name is Matthew and I am an author. I’m based here in the north of England, Yorkshire. And I’ve spent my entire life in this beautiful part of a country where there’s lots of greenery and rolling hillsides. And in my early 20s, I dipped my toe into the world of writing more is a form of therapy than anything else. It began with journaling and just getting ideas from fought to paper, to better understand what was going on inside me. And it led to an idea of a story, which eventually became my first book beyond parallel. And it was a book I wrote throughout my 20s, just as a bit of a side hobby. As I was getting my qualifications in the world of marketing, I went to Union Africa. And I got to a point in my late 20s, where I thought, I need to either finish this book, and work with an editor and try and get it published, or I need to put it in a drawer, and just forget about it forever. So I decided to commit, I decided to finish it. And it sparked the journey that I’ve been on for the last decade now. One book, game two became free. And here we are recording this on the cost of my fifth book, beyond the pale, which is a fable. So it kind of brings the world of fiction and nonfiction together as one. And I’m very proud of it. And as well as writing my own books, I’ve also found a bit of a niche where I go straight for clients, whether it’s a book or articles. And that’s been a journey in itself. I sort of started working for myself more focused on marketing, but I leaned further and further into my writing and realized for other people who could get value from my writing. So it’s crazy to think how fat therapeutic journaling exercise pushing on, well, 1617 years ago now has ever so surely become my career, my vocation my huge part of my life, whether it’s writing for myself or for



another. Yeah, it’s funny you talk about a couple of things in your talk about journaling and and it’s that’s an exercise I think most people should do. Honestly, I’m I’m an avid journal, I am working in front of me on my desk, and there’s a journal in front of me, I tend to write, you know, for myself probably 10 or 15 minutes a day, it helps organize your thoughts and organize your head. And it’s amazing what comes from that in your case of of writing. So that’s, that’s really interesting. And the other thing you mentioned that I find really interesting is, you say you started one book, and then you did two and then you did three. I have a couple of journalists, writers, writers in my vocal circles. And these are guys who wrote for news Papers as a career, and then retired and got into book writing, and it seems with writers to writing never seems to stop. And that’s something I’ve noticed that you have a thoughts on that.



It’s one of those things. Yeah, I mean, the thing is with writing, and I think this is true, probably of all, all expression, it comes from inside you. It comes from, you know, faults, ideas, fears, worries, just suppose in a questions in a voice, refusing to shut up. And I suppose one thing that separates writers from other forms of arts is that to write is to literally get thoughts from your head, in long form onto paper, and they become stories, they become anecdotes, they become, like written forms of stories and tales. So it’s not just a picture, for instance, where it’s not a song about lasts for three minutes, they often develop into very roundabout stories that hopefully have a point and several points that come together to help the reader in some form or another. So and the common thing, whether you’re a journalist, working fiction, nonfiction, poet, whatever it may be, is, your brain never switches off. And I think that’s obviously true of all people. But as a writer, the only way you can usually make sense of those thoughts roaming inside your head, those inner monologues and dialogues, the only way you can get any of them to make any sort of sense is to just literally get it out from your head on to the page. So you can read it, reread it, rewrite it, edit it, go through that process again, and again. And at least for me, I find the only way I can truly get a fault for my head and turn into something cohesive. Something that I can better understand something but I can articulate with others is to get it onto the page. And then to read it, reread it, rewrote it, edit it, and so on. And I think at least for my expansion varieties, we all kind of follow that kind of pattern, whether we’re journalists, poets, whatever it may be. And because your brain never switches off, because you never stop having these questions, because you never stop having these little musings, it just inevitably leads to one book to another to this, but I don’t think a writer can ever truly retire, we can slow down and they can take that time, but to just remove yourself from the process completely. I don’t know if that’s even possible.



No, it’s true. And and what I would appreciate, and I do appreciate, and I’ll tell you is I’m an avid reader. So when I read, and it doesn’t matter if it’s a fiction book, if it’s a nonfiction book. If the writer has really done a good job, I can actually picture what to read, you’re saying in my head. And I’ve always preferred honestly a good book over a movie, or a TV show, because I think there’s details in the book that you cannot put in a movie or TV show there’s background, there’s information. There’s a depicting a picture, and not throwing it that I kind of call movies and TV shows the idiot box way of looking at things, they present it for you, and they expect you to see it their way. When you read a book that’s well written, you see it your way. And it’s really interesting.



It’s an interesting point. I mean, there’s a couple of things here. So the first is that I think we forget, and we under appreciate the role storytelling plays in our learning. I mean, even books, as they’ve been around for a long time now, in our opinion, but in terms of human history, very recent invention. For literally millennia, 10s millennia, we passed information down through stories in person, from the wise elders sharing stories to the younger folk, so they could do the same later in life. It’s how we passed on important lessons. It’s how we passed on beliefs. It’s how we created beliefs, and how we created commonality which led into civilization and society. So storytelling has played a humongous role in our evolution. It’s almost a part of our DNA. And I think we forget that because now we can learn in so many different ways. We have access to it in our phones and laptops all the time and, you know, even sort of generations before as they had access to it through books. But storytelling is just so deeply rooted insiders. And we have like, an affiliation toward it, we trust stories in a way that I don’t think we trust other forms of communication. So we naturally just lean in, take an interest, and find a way to relate. Which brings us to the other point, this idea of imagination, we’re all born with incredible imaginations. The evidence is there, whenever you look at a child, three years old, five years old, seven years old, 10 years old, whatever it may be, they’re able to just create out of nothing, you’re able to entertain themselves with, with toys, and with a stick. And just using very imagination, we all have that. And we just lose sight of that over time, as we learn and we, you know, educate ourselves and learn in different ways, and we gain responsibility. But there’s this inner child amongst dissolve is this imagination, just screaming, to get out. And I think what happens when we read, it taps into those two things, that kind of innate trust, and affiliation to stories that are as a part of us, as you know, anything is like they are just like, a part of a part of our DNA, a part of our beliefs a part of our spirit part of our soul. But it also taps into our imagination, it’s not something that we can see. It’s something that forces us to imagine. It’s for sisters to picture, and to relate and step into the shoes. We’re not showing what the character in the book looks like. We have to read between the lines. And yet, the person I picture in my head will differ to yours, they may be very similar. But there’s something special about that. So I think reading and storytelling, it just connects us with those two things that connects us with our imagination. And that in built affiliation to odd story.



So it’s so true, you as you were talking about storytelling, you were bringing me back to a little bit when I was young boy. And I used to sit with my grandfather at a table who’s unfortunately Long, long gone. And my grandfather was from Edinburgh, Scotland, originally, and he actually came over to Canada in those days, he came over on a boat, you didn’t come over on a on a plane because of cost and bring in a drunk. And he came to Canada with his sister when he was 80. And one of the things he used to sit and I’ve been nagging bro, he used to sit and talk to me before I went about Edinburgh. And I could just picture stuff. And I think this is an art. And I really think it’s a bit of an art that is a little bit lost with the should I say the younger generation. They don’t seem to have the same volition, of imagination that you and I did. And they don’t seem to have the same impact with storytelling, and they don’t seem certainly do not see that same impact of history with the society we’re in, in the in the what I call the cancel society. I don’t think they’re in the same place. And I think it’s it’s making the world a harder place. Do you have any thoughts on that?



Yeah, I think it’s a tricky one. I mean, obviously, it’s hard to deny the fact that the world is very different today than it was when I was a kid and, versus to when you were a kid, and and so on and so on. I think it’s different. It’s not necessarily. It’s not necessarily missing. It’s just different. Like I have a son, he’s eight years old. His imagination is, is wild. It’s vivid. It’s it’s immense, you know, I mean, all of it. And he’s able to still imagine, but he probably does it in a different way. And I do. He’s very much right now into things like Minecraft and starting to get into computer games. But he loves world building. Yeah, he loves imagining in that sense. So his imagination is still very wild, and it’s out there. He still has a strong affiliation to storytelling. But the way he expresses it and the way he connects to it is different. It’s less through read and it’s more through, you know, the computer game and seeing other people create those stories. showed them on YouTube. So it’s different? And I don’t think it would be. I think that was one of the problem we’ve always had, as a society, it leads us to ultimately say, my generation is the best, you know, the today’s generation, but don’t do it the same way. Don’t do it, because it is just different. You know, it’s just different. And, yeah, I don’t think it would be fair, I wrote to say, how I went about it when I was a kid is better or worse for now charged us. It’s different. Yeah, the one thing we need to be very strong about going forward as parents and as grandparents and as teachers, as leaders in the future, is to just constantly try and think, Okay, how can we nurture this imagination? If we’re going to do it in a different way? How can we continue to nurture imagination, how can we nurture storytelling, we need to let it evolve, it’s not always going to be in book form, it can take other forms to it. Again, it’s not to say it’s better or worse, but we need to constantly be thinking about how we can nurture it, and bring the best out of it, and allow it to thrive.



There, I would agree with that. The, it’s funny, I, I once heard a well known billionaire, and I forget who said it. So you know, say, if you read an hour a day, instead of watching TV an hour a day, your life would be better off and are more richer, and I’ve, I’ve kind of subscribe to that theory, I’m, I’m basically still a book a week person. So even at my age of 53, I read one book a week, every week, the big difference where it’s changed is for me, that book is often a Kindle book, instead of a physical book. We’re talking about changes and, and part of that being is I’m a more, I’m a very mobile person. So you know, the can the E reader goes in the bag with me. And it’s easier, honestly, to carry five books on an E reader than five books



in the bag. You know, so I think it’s a great yeah, a great example of it, you know, reading is important for everything that we discussed, it just creates that connection between storytelling and your imagination. And you’re always going to get something out of reading, but you wouldn’t from watching, or from consuming a computer game, for instance. But reading can take on many forms. And I think especially now, we’re part of the generation. And so it finds it hard to focus on things for long periods of time, whether that’s right or wrong, where we’re certainly entering an age of micro consumption. So I think we’ll see more and more serialization of stories where they shared like a chapter at a time, and they shared like, micro doses, so people are still getting by reading fix, but they’re doing it in a way that connects with lifestyle connects with their form of read, and that form of learning, shall I say. And I think society as a whole is going to continue to evolve and adapt, in that sense, from education to entertainment, for the arts, and everything, it’s just, it’s different. Like, I don’t fully understand it, you know, Now today’s like, in a couple years time, it’s already starting to an extent is eight will be nine this time, George, but in another couple years, and he’s 10 or 11, I just know that he’s going to be all consumed by the tick tock worlds, you know, it’s just these little micro videos. I don’t personally get it. I don’t either. And I’m, I don’t particularly get it, but I have an appreciation, but I don’t need to get it for it to be relevant. You know, and it’s just the way the world’s turning towards it. Who knows what the world will look like in five years, 10 years, 15 years, it might become more of these micro consumptions, it might flip on its head and become something where he just gravitates away from that because it becomes a fad. And it becomes all about deep learning, and in which case, like, big volumes of work will become the thing you just never know. But right now, it certainly seems like you know, people are finding it easier to learn in the small short and sweet ways, whether it’s visual, whether it’s reading, whether it’s audio, and I certainly see there’s a there’s a scope there for for authors and writers and readers to kind of get their fix in pieces, shorter micro doses.



No, I would agree with that. Before we jump into the religious book, did you decide to self publish your books or have you done to a publisher and why and where and if he could dive into Add a little bit.



So beyond the pale is my first traditionally published book, my previous four was self published and I did so you know, largely for the freedom and the creative license to be able to do what I want. But there was also I think, a fear of rejection there and scared of like, not getting past the gatekeepers went beyond the pale, I felt like it was the book for me to, you know, step outside of my comfort zone, it’s very much a book about stepping outside of your comfort zone. So to go the traditional route was a way for me to step beyond my own tail, and do something I’ve not done do something I’ve wanted to do but have feared doing. And it’s been an eye opening experience. So far, it’s been wonderful working with a publisher, it’s been different. It’s been good different in some ways, it’s been not so good, different in others. But I yeah, I don’t know what the future I feel in the future, I will continue to publish books in, in a traditional sense, in a hybrid sense, and probably also in a self published steps. It’s one of the great things of today, where there isn’t a right or wrong way per se. It really depends on a medium, it depends on the book, it depends on the goals of the book and who you’re serving. And, yeah, so this one is my first traditional book. I’ve done this self published book. And I think I’ll do more of Dolf moving forward.



No, good. So let’s dive into beyond the pale on your website. There’s a really good quote I like and I’m just gonna read it and get you to comment on any introduce it by saying, a book that inspires you to question the success means you and gives you permission to escape the hustle and in brackets had the word forever. I really liked that quote. I think it says a lot. And I think it’s pretty inspirational. Do you want to kind of talk about the code a little bit?



Yeah, it’s, in a nutshell, a huge part of the books premise. So it’s not it’s like it’s a it’s a blend of fiction and nonfiction. So when you read a novel, quite often, it’s designed to help you escape. And 2010 it doesn’t usually do a particularly good job of educating enlightening, it’s not to say that the book won’t have hidden meanings, and you will learn from it. But it’s first and foremost, like most novels, especially, you know, the kind of easier to consume novel, whether it’s like thriller or crime, fantasy, they’re there to help you escape from your life a little bit, just disconnect, and to entertain. a nonfiction book, on the other hand, is completely different. It really is there to help you learn that educate and or enlightening. It doesn’t usually do a great job of entertaining or allowing you to, you know, escape your life to disconnect. So a fable is like a blending of the two where it’s designed to entertain and help you escape, but also at the same time, educate and enlighten you. And they educate and be aligned with aspects of beyond the pale is to in a very sort of informal way. Just help you question your role in the hustle. It’s to help you question what success means to you. I think we all have this bland association of success. Most of us maybe even all of us, at least for a good chunk of our lives, because we’re following what our parents taught us were influenced by the major and what we learn at school. So we believe that success is getting a degree having a job climbing the ladder, a certain house certain way, you know, there’s certain rules that we follow. And we’re like, Okay, if I follow these rules, I will lead a successful life, it will allow me to pursue happiness. But we don’t have any real passion to what I read doesn’t necessarily have any real meaning to us. On when we take a step back and think, what does success mean to me, like get real specific, most of us struggle a while I’m not too sure. I have an idea of what it is. But I’ve never taken the time to strip the layers away like an onion and get to the root and imply Okay, this is success. This is meaning this is happiness. For me, this is my purpose. And beyond the pale is all about stripping away those layers and helping you kind of connect with that purpose, that version about true definition of success. And I think one of the things that gets in the way of that for all this is this idea of the hustle, not necessarily the grinding till the early hours every day, not necessarily working 70 hour work without some version of the hustle. It’s a very toxic version too. But really, what hustle means It’s, it’s, it’s surrounded by this ever connected notion of life. We are constantly connected to other people constantly comparing ourselves to other people. And I think this was always happening. It’s just more rife these days due to social media, and the fact that we’re connected by our phones and our computers, because we’re able to just constantly check in on our email, we’re constantly able to just do a little bit of work, we’re constantly able to just scroll through social media for a little bit, and compare our lives with other people’s lives, we’re not getting a real insight into their life, of course, we’re just getting an edited version of a successful version of that. And it leads us to compare and like, Oh, well, they look happier than me, they seem to be more successful than me, they made me decide I need to do more of what they’re doing, I need to work a little bit harder, I need to work in a little bit longer. I need to do a little bit more. So you keep yourself busy. You keep yourself distracted by just doing more marmar doing doing doing, which stops you from taking a step back and reflecting and thinking All right, well, what is successful means to me, what is my vision? What is my mission? What is the important work that I need to be doing? So you don’t give yourself any time to do the things you need to do. And instead, you just distract yourself with all this stuff, which stops you from achieving what you can. So it’s a vicious cycle. And once you step back and start to question what success means to you, it helps you step away from the hustle. And the more you distance yourself from the hustle, the more you can go deeper into the real definition of success, purpose, meaning, happiness and such.



So so it’s so true. I mean, how many people actually take a look at success? And then look at themselves and say, am I happy with me? And they don’t realize if you’re not happy with you, it doesn’t matter what perceived success you have, you really don’t have it. And then the other common I have really quickly out of that discussion we’re having is we talked about social media and what people post and we try and meet them. What most people have to realize is the average person on social media only posts, their best things are the worst things. They don’t post anything in between. So they’re either posting they get attention, or they’re posting their best things. Oh, look at me, I look great today. Look at me, I had a birthday party with my friends today. You know what, that’s not reality. The reality is, I had a great birthday party, but then I had to go home and do family time, I had to do chores, I had to deal with a call from a friend who wasn’t feeling good. I wasn’t feeling good. You get what I’m saying? They don’t want that stuff. And, and I think part of the problem with all of this is, everybody keeps doing the hustle. And I’ve done it in my career. I have a job in healthcare in it, where I was working 70 hours a week. And I left that job 11 years ago, and said, geez, I’m so much more happier. And because you get caught in just doing it because everybody else does it. But that doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t mean you’re successful, and it doesn’t make it any more happier.



Absolutely. Yeah. It’s crazy. I mean, the factors lie life is pretty boring. It’s pretty vanilla. It’s pretty beige. Like it doesn’t matter who you are, how adventurous you are. Most of the hours in the day are spent sleeping, getting ready. doing you know the essential tasks you need to do chores around a house commuting things like if even if you’re adventurous go getter, who lives life to the fullest, more of your life is still spent doing just everyday bland thing and has nothing wrong with that that is just a part of life. But like you say, we get all these insights into all these people just we see the really amazing moments we see. They’re really, you know, the highlight reel of iPod man. My book, my day has been so boring and they’ve been living their life to the fullest. They look so much fun. Like I wish I was like them. I don’t see all that blonde life. You know, we don’t realize that they’re also comparing themselves to someone else. And yeah, it’s it can get real toxic and it gets you into that vicious cycle where hustle just distracts you leads you deeper into hustling onto that hamster wheel and you give yourself no time. Whereas if you can just start distance yourself away from it. And I think the key catalyst is to give yourself some time to reflect on what success means to you. It helps you It gives you Permission to step away from the hustle. And the more you step away from the hustle, the more you can dive deeper into the real version of success, which allows you and gives you permission to step further away from the hustle, which leads him more into your success. And more away from the hustle and such and such. So it’s one of those things where being stuck in a hustle is a vicious hamster wheel, you know, where one feels the other. But if you can step away from it, it’s the opposite, like good, can feel good, can feel good can feel good. So, I mean, in a nutshell, that’s kind of a premise of beyond the pale and what I hope the reader takes from it and be like, Okay, well, what is my role in hustle? Like, what is actually the purpose of my work my life, my being? Like, who do I want to be? What do I want to, you know, be? You know, when I get to the end of my day, what do I want to achieve? What What do I want to have represented? Like, what does going a mile deep mean, to me? And the more people who can commit themselves to that, I feel we will have a much more purpose driven world.



Yeah, it’s true. In on your website, you make another really good point. And you say, this is for people wish to align your mind, your body and your soul. I would really agree with that. In marking in this discussion, you have to have the three aligned, I think it matters. Do you want to speak a little bit about that?



Yes. So I often work like a lot of the stuff which comes away from the book, when I work with people in person I talk about, you have to be selfish in order to be selfless. And I think again, this is one of the things that can only happen when you step away from the hustle. When you’re in the hostel, you get so caught up in like serving others, like being you know, your best self all the time. But you don’t actually really give yourself any time to truly fill your own cup. You can be like, really, you know, like, an amazing body, you know. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re filling your own cup, you just burning yourself out. Once you start stepping away from Bahasa it gives you time and gives you again, this word permission to start truly serving you like being a little bit selfish, selfless, selfish. So you can be selfless, cruel, to be kind, if you will. And I honestly feel like the only way you can ever fill other people’s cups, whether it’s your kids, your partners, your customers, your clients, whatever it may be, is if you first fill your cup, and when it comes to fill in your cup, it’s all about Mind, Body spirit, each and every day, you need to be given yourself some time. to fuel your mind, your body, your spirit, you know, do a bit of exercise. fueling your body with the right kind of foods obviously plays an important role, but just get an alpha and move in. That doesn’t mean you need to be an Adonis. But just means you need to get out there and just move your body, go for a walk. When I talk about mind, it doesn’t mean but you need to be someone who’s reading eight books a week, or learning all these different courses, or being super smart. This just means giving yourself some time to escape your work, escape your life to just read upon whether it’s fiction or philosophy or history, or psychology or whatever else but learning for the sake of you know, like fueling something within you not just learning for the sake of learning, but learning to you know, expand yourself. And obviously, it doesn’t necessarily always be learning, journaling can be a form of fueling your mind. And then when it comes to spirit and soul, I mean, for some people, it’s religious, some teams on prayer, it like to steal your spirit, it could be volunteering, but it also could just be meditating for a little while. It could be doing a little bit of yoga, which combines spirit and body. It could be a form of journaling. It could be going for a walk and just reflecting on your life. So again, what body means to you? Or shall I say what fueling your body means to you what fueling your mind means to you what fueling your spirit or your soul means to you totally different. And there’s no right or wrong, there’s loads of things you could do. And in time, the idea is that you hone in on what works for you. But then just giving yourself that time every day to fill your cup. Because if you wake up every day and give yourself time to fill your cup, you will find it so much easier to fill other people’s cups. If you serve you, you will find it so much easier to serve others and they won’t be an obligation. There’ll be something you lean into because you have the energy to do so you have the motivation to do so. But again, so hard to do if you’re caught up in a hustle. But once you take a step back from it, it becomes so much more attainable.



It is so it is so true Matthew like I I look at you say serve yourself and you say Did the average person, why didn’t you take care of yourself? You know what your responses? I don’t have time? Yeah. And I always look at people and my mom loved her dearly. She’s 74. She’s great. And I said, Well, why don’t you do this on half time? And what I say to her is, you mean, it’s not a priority? Exactly, yeah. Because the one thing I’ve learned, and I’ve been my journey, I’ve been through a couple, you know, bad long term relationships I’ve been through, you know, I’m in, I’m in the middle of a separation. So they didn’t know divorce. I mean, that’s just part of life. And I’m one of the things I’ve learned is you got to take care of yourself first. And if you can’t take care of yourself, you can’t serve others. You can’t help others. You can’t be there, and you can’t be happy. And when it comes to, you know, people say, but you’re selfish, and I said, Oh, good, no problem there, I’m good with that. Because you’re allowed to be selfish about your own happiness, you have to be, because at the end of the day, nobody else is going to make you happy. And you got to start to make the important things and you talk about things like going for a walk. That’s something I do every day, I go for an hour walk, and it’s probably where I do my most heavy thinking. And I actually started going for a walk to clear my head, like years ago, and and the reason I kept walking is I’ve actually managed to keep weight under control as you get older becomes a problem. And that’s helped keep weight under control. So it’s served two purposes. And I find, honestly, I’m the most heavy, thank you, when I’m walking. I’m also the most emotional with myself, and I’m doing that heavy thinking, and I’m walking. And I’m wanting to tap into yourself. And when I say emotional i i’ve over the last couple of years, I don’t know, I was like my emotions go around other people, because frankly, at the end of the day, they don’t care. And that’s just reality people. And so I deal with them myself. And it’s when I’m out walking, and you don’t have to do all the things you talk about. And I keep coming back to three I do regularly as I walk, I journal. And the other thing I do every night for I go to bed is I meditate for 20 minutes. And that actually helps me sleep and helps me unwind and helps me transition. It’s not for everybody. I tried it five years ago, and I said, Are you kidding me? And then I found a spot with it, where it really works. So but the point is, do something that works for you, and try and work that out. And any other word we talked about being selfish that people have to learn is the word no. And that’s, that’s a really powerful word. And and when you say no, don’t validate it. Why not? Because I said no, don’t validate it. Because the minute you validate it, he gives an opening. So I’m a big fan of saying no. And people said Why did you say no? Because I don’t want to? Very simple No, because if I say maybe that was a door open, right? So it’s interesting.



It is very powerful word and the whole world of selfish. The only real way you can be selfish is if you just become onto only advocates. So if you keep taking time for yourself, and then refuse to serve others with it. Then in time you become selfish. Yeah, but if you are being selfish and filling your cup, so you can turn up for those who need you. Whether that’s turn up as a mother or father, a friend, a partner, sibling, a leader at work as you lead a team, or just a colleague, or a peer or a mentor, or by serving your clients, your customers, your audience. If you’re being selfish, so then you can serve others. That isn’t really being selfish. It only become selfish. If you just keep taking and taking and taking you become like a narcissist. That’s the only real way to become selfish. As long as you’re taking time as long as you’re saying no. So it has meaning so that you can then serve other people so that you can be generous in some way or another. Then it’s also being cruel to be kind. It’s being selfish, so you can be selfless. It’s filling your own cup. So then you can fill other people’s, it’s putting your own oxygen mask on, so that you have the capability and then put it on your son or daughters.



I would agree with that. And I would also go so far as to say it’s even the people who hit the weekend and say I need to quiet down day. You’re doing that so you can recharge, and do other things. And, you know, we all need downtime. I hate to say it, especially in the last year and a half this, the world’s been tougher than it’s ever been before, in our generation,



I think. And one thing I was add to it as well, for those listening is give yourself permission to to do about, right? Yep. Like you said, Give yourself permission to say no, give yourself to be yourself permission to be selfish, and also allow other people to do so. When someone says no to you, and your first instinct is to be offended, and to be defensive, that’s fine, if that’s your initial thought or feeling we have them, but then remind yourself, they’re allowed to say no. If your partner says I want time, it’s okay, if your initial reaction is to feel frustrated, but then remind yourself, that is okay. They too deserve to fill their own cup. Of course, you know, of course, if they keep taking and taking and taking, but that’s a different conversation to have. But be the person who is okay, with having those around you say no to say I need some room, I need some space. I want some time. I think it’s important to be both selfish and allow other people to be selfish.



Yeah, I would I would agree. I just want to sort of throw an observation at you know, you talk about this book being a fable. I almost think, and maybe I’m wrong. This book needs to be in the Self Help section at the bookstore. If you if you can understand where I’m going from a kinda falls into a lot of the mind body type books are that philosophy books you have any thoughts on? Yeah, it’s



its main. Its main category on the bucket. The book actually has it on here somewhere. Yeah, it’s bad body, mind, spirit, flesh, inspiration and personal growth. They are like the main categories, if you will, when, like books have different categories, like bookstores have different categories, and they’re like the main ones. And honestly, I think all fables, to some degree, should probably slip into the Self Help section. I mean, self help can take on so many different forms. And a fable is like a version of self help that like massages an idea into your brain rather than kind of bosses it in, you know, it’s not like a how to self help, like, follow these seven strategies, or these seven steps and you will, x, y and Zed. It’s more just a subtle nudge helping you relate in some form or another, but don’t write every fable, every parable, every allegory, they’re a form of self help. And oftentimes, they’re the exact form of self help that most of us need. Yeah, yeah.



You know, we talked about inspiration, and we talk about self help. Do you have any inspiration of other people in that field that you’ve kind of turned to for direction advice, personal growth.



I mean, it’s been many over the years, I’ve gone down the, you know, the personal development mindset, rabbit hole, because lots of people I’ve learned on over the years, I’ve, I’ve certainly taken more of a personal inspiration, those who are more philosophical, so I’m a big fan of Ryan Holiday, for instance, who covers a lot of, you know, areas of like, within, like, you know, personal development around sort of ego and growth and things, but he comes at it from a very sort of philosophical and stoic sense. And I like that because philosophy, as a general rule doesn’t have rules. I mean, the whole point of philosophy is to try and figure out live but also appreciate that life isn’t there to be figured out. It just is there to get you to question and to reflect and to think about these big things. And it’s not always about having an answer. It’s just having the care and the commitment to go in search for questions. So Ryan Holiday certainly someone who’s inspired me a lot and other people as well come on rather can’t who’s someone who I’m very proud to say as part of the book, and I interviewed him to be in part of the book in his current speech, Senate. He Serrano’s writing has inspired me a lot of recent years and I’m also a big fan of efficient McCarney. I feel like he has introduced me to some very incredible people who, again looked at sort of personal development in a you know, a unique way. There is a little way he tends to, you know, gravitate towards people who are You know, don’t necessarily conform into the, into the typical way, you know, they’re quite atypical in things. And he himself is a fantastic writer and educator. So yeah, for those freedoms suddenly come to mind.



Oh, thank you for sharing that. So if you know you were to project your ideal reader for this book, who would it be?



They. So I, when I originally brought it, I thought it would be something that would appeal largely, and maybe exclusively to business owners, you know, entrepreneurs, people who run their own business in a large online way. So obviously, that takes on many forms these days, you could be a business owner, or you could be like a solopreneur, or a freelancer or contractor. But the more I’ve dove down its rabbit hole, and given out the advanced copies of, you know, reflected and observed, I’ve realized it’s pretty applicable to anyone who is just rather consumed by the online world. That obviously covers a lot of entrepreneurs and influencers and things of that. But that also covers a lot of people who have, you know, your mom, sort of standard nine to five jobs, because so many people’s work now centers around social media, emails, zoom meetings, things of that nature, and people just invest spare time, bait. So often, we’ll just turn to the online world to learn googling and articles and just consuming podcasts, YouTube channels, books, articles, blogs, just for the sake of it as a form of procrastination, getting caught in the hustle, social media about they can compare themselves to others, everything that we talked about earlier. So the book is just very much for today’s online centered world, if you feel like you’re someone who plays spends too much time, either working or distracting yourself on lie. It’s a book that will probably speak to you in some way. Specifically, if you are someone who has built your persona of success online, whether that’s a nine to five job, whether that’s working for yourself, whether that’s building an online business, it will certainly speak to you. Because it’s all about this idea of stepping away from the supposed person you think you need to be and tapping and going in search of the person you need



to be. Yeah, that that’s so really key. Once the book available, Matthew, you say it’s not quite ready to



publish state where Yeah, in the process. It is its official birthday is the 24th of August. So that’s when it becomes available in bookstores, shipping from Amazon, and all that good stuff. But it is available as of now. On beyond book co has links there. So you can download the book and preorder the books which ships as soon as it’s available. There’s also a free sample on beyond book CO, where you can read the first few chapters to see whether it’s something you would enjoy. So yeah, it’s it’s available for anyone who likes light yourself to read on a Kindle. It’s available now. But if you’d like to farm through a book and have it held in person, and it’s official release, its 24th of August.



And if it can be available on Amazon just in the UK or have you set it up for distribution like in the US, etc.



Yep, us most I mean, in terms of like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all the online bookstores, pretty much global reach in come August. And it’s going to be available in hopefully, many American and Canadian bookstores, from the 24th of August. And then I think it’ll be available in sort of a UK and being global bookstores around about sort of ninth of September.



I have to tell you, Matthew, I love to read and I cannot remember the last time I stepped in a bookstore. You know it just we used to have this monstrous bookstore in Toronto called world’s biggest bookstore. And it was like a full block it was and it was bought out way one of the big Canadian bookstore chains and needless to say, it’s no longer there. It’s actually been demolished. It’s now a condo building York. But I I just find and it’s just been my personal choice when I order books I already I can order them on Amazon. And the reason the reason I do is you walk into the small bookstore in a mall and they usually don’t have everything and then they say Good. Can I order that for you? Well, I can order that myself. I don’t need you guys store. So I kind of, I kind of miss that a little bit where I used to get lost and walk into a bookstore and I peruse books for hours. But, you know, times



time’s up have changed. For convenience. I often will. Yeah, Amazon, but I also enjoy a good trip to a bookstore. Yeah, it’s quite pricey, but I find



Yeah, it goes. If somebody can get a hold here, how is the best way to talk about the book.



Like I say beyond book Co. So that’s beyond book.co gives you all the information about the book, there’s a book trailer on links to where you can buy such preorder. And as I say, you can grab a free sample so you can read the first few chapters, see if it’s something you’d like to read. And there’s also links there to like my facebook, facebook group, and Instagram, all that stuff. So beyond book co will give you everything you need about me. And



thank you so much for joining me today, Matthew and really all the best with the book. It looks like it’s going to be a great read. Download the first couple free chapters have read They’re really good. And I think you’re gonna do really well with it and all the best. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.



A very special thank you to Matthew Turner for joining me on this edition of the SDM show. Make sure you check out this book beyond the pale when it’s released. Thanks for listening to the SDM show. It shows your production is stunning digital marketing and all rights reserved. Rob can be reached by email at VIP at stunningdigitalmarketing.com on twitter at Rob Cairns on his website stunning digital marketing .com and on his website there’s links to all his social media platforms. This show is dedicated to my late father Bruce Cairns Dad, I miss you very much. Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars make your business succeed.

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