Episode 476 CopyWriting WIth Todd Jones Skills in Copywriting

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Show Summary

Rob Cairns and Todd Jones talk about skills in copywriting.

Show Highlights:

1. Research as a skill.

2. Understanding the culture for where you are writing for.

3. Whaat to look for when hiring.

Show Notes

Hey everybody, Rob Cairns. And then today I have my good friend Mr. Todd Jones with me and we’re doing a segment I’ll be writing with Todd Jones. How are you, Todd?

Whooping suey.

That time begins.

Razorbacks. OK, I’m. I’m doing pretty good. It’s we had some fairly cool weather this morning. We got some sunshine going on the middle of college football season. I had a pumpkin latte today, so we’re good.

Health.

I’ve already I’ve already had one at Starbucks a couple weeks ago and.

This was not at Starbucks. Shout out the love of grounds in Conway’s Local coffee shop, who has sugar free syrup. My usual favorite round on coffee does not have sugar free syrup. The level ground us, so I went there and the girl made-up a pumpkin. Really not much up. She called her pumpkin pie, but like, that works. It was very good. So very happy about that.

My my local Tim horton’s is closed for renovations and for those for those who don’t know, Tim horton’s is like a national institution in Canada and.

Ohh no. Yeah, even I know that.

So now I have to walk to the buddy Starbucks, which is one way the other one way or one way the other way, because that’s the way it goes my friend. So you know it’s.

Yeah, too bad you have to go to big green. Yeah.

I don’t mind Starbucks occasionally, so that’s OK.

All station with Starbucks. They have a really good pumpkin loaf, piece of bread and they have really good pumpkin muffin. They do have those, if that’s what you are craving. They’re the place to go in my.

Hey dude.

Opinion so and I am and I am using. It’s hard to see but this is actually a Timmy’s mug that I I drink out of. So there you go. And we won’t talk about about football in that’s a dumpster fire and we won’t talk about the NFL cause. Those who know I’m a Cowboys fan, and that’s a dumpster fire, so you know.

Now here, here’s something that’s a little connecting between you and me that your audience may not know about. We’re talking about copywriting, but we’re talking about college football. Florida State, which is your team that you’re saying is a dumpster fire. Whatever is coached by what is the guys name that coaches.

That’s correct.

The. What’s the head coach for Florida State?

I’m drawing a bank.

Yeah, me too. Anyway, he is a graduate former football player of years ago at the University of Central Arkansas, which is in the town where I live now. So yeah, there’s an honest to God, strange connection between Rob and me with the football coach of his favorite college football team being a former. There’s a there’s a picture.

But then they’ll do.

Going around the Internet, yeah, as you see a bear back in the 90s, I believe and.

No.

He has cornrows.

Yeah.

Can you believe that he has cornrows so anyway?

Any any other Toronto connection to Florida State actually is on the basketball side, Scotty Barnes, who the Toronto Raptors drafted a number of years ago, has been with us for a couple of years. They’re they’re superstar point guard is actually an FSU graduate, so there you go. So anyway, so we thought.

Yeah, there you go.

We jump into this segment we’re doing and about a little bit about skills and expertise and yeah around copywriting. Where do you like to go? With that.

OK, well, several weeks ago actually one one month ago, according to LinkedIn. I’m looking at the the post right now. I wrote very, very clearly on this. I wrote just to be clear, as a content writer and or copywriter my process, we’ve talked about my process on this show. Does it consist of? One sit at a computer 2 or write words. There’s more to it and it’s the same for my friends here, content writers and copywriters too. I did take somebody in it. Needless to say, it’s sitting at 12149 impressions. So I guess it got a little bit of attention. Some fellow copywriters and content. Partners are clapping and applauding and so forth. So in the last episode, excuse me, we talked about rates, right, where rates would be so much or whatever. And I think you are you included the link to the to the AWAI copywriting rates guide which people can download and get an idea about rates. But you know it’s. It’s not just about putting out words. There’s there’s way more to it and. So, and then another guy had written an article, actually a LinkedIn post, and this I think I don’t know if this was. I think he wrote this after I wrote mine, but he was just talking about, you know, the difference between, you know, copywriting and that converts like crazy and copy. That hurts your ROI and brand reputation.

Opposed.

And then he goes into all this stuff. But he talks about he he really focuses on research, right? Interviews, surveys, mining reviews and social media. Scouring conversations informs. I would even you know that that’s the interview part of it, right. There’s, there’s a lot of expertise that goes into copper and it’s just not spitting out words and your your time writing copy. Experimenting with different styles of writing. Piling through everybody right by in Hanley or taking a course. To riding open loops, how to use stories as an analogy, what copy framework you have actually decided to ascribe to, you know, psychology? I’ve become an amateur psychologist, you know, and I never really would have thought about that before, but I find myself watching documentaries. Like, why do people do what they do? Like, you know, the default answer is they’re done, right? But that’s not always the case. Sometimes people just, you know, we we have a particular ecosystem where we’re dealing with now in our industry with a. With the the leader, who’s kind of he’s seems to be off his, you know, kind of off the kilter. Why do people do what they do? A copywriter is usually an amateur psychologist in some way, so. All this stuff is skills you accumulated over time in any industry. We talked about that. Right, OK, if you’re going to get a. Bill, do you want the guy or? Well, I could say gal, but do you want the guy who started yesterday to build that house, or do you want that guy who’s been doing it for 30 years and he’s built everything you can see that he’s ever tried to build. He’s. Built a mall. He knows the how not to use shortcuts. He knows the best material, he he he’s built what you’re wanting to build the the certain frameworks and so forth. He’s done it 100 times. Which kind do you want? Right. Right. OK. If you’re having. I’ve had a lot of surgeries in my time. You’re having a surgery, especially on something internally. You want the guy who just got out of Med school. Or do you let the guys been doing it 20 years, right. I had a one of the major surgeries I had was I had a ruptured disc in my neck. This is 1998 I think.

Yes.

And the guy that did my neck surgery, he he was on, he was on backside career. He’s probably retiring within five years after my surgery. I wouldn’t been shocked if he had. I I’d have no idea he’d been doing it for 30-40 years. The guy who does my mom was orthopedic surgeon that my mom uses is also been doing. 30-40 years. I mean is is it is about expertise and as my friend on LinkedIn point out, you can run your brand reputation and if you use somebody doesn’t know what they’re doing, make a big mistake. But I mean.

There’s expertise in that.

Also the other thing is people default to average a lot of times with writing and and lack creativity. I mean and I I see a lot of people, I’m not against AI people think I may be against AI. I’m not exactly against AI. I just don’t think people use it very well, especially when it comes to. Buddy. But people were like ohh write me a a page and give a few parameters and it spits out something rather average you know. But if you have a skilled writer. Who understands that maybe your audience would respond really well to this particular writing technique, you know, or. The other thing about writing a copywriter. They if you’re talking about web copy, there’s a whole lot that goes into that. So we talked about my process, right. One of them is research, right. You you research five ways till Sunday. You know, there’s different ways to research and to assimilate the information you’re gathered. You don’t just rush in and spit out words. If you’re a good copywriter, so. That that’s that comes with expertise that comes with having an acquired the skills over the years.

This is this is. But this is one of the reasons why you have to pay for expertise, not just what we talked about in the last episode, not by the word or by the hour, because there’s a lot of expertise that goes in. And it’s not just writing a lot of it’s research, knowing where to go, relationships and it goes on.

I would say 2 thirds, 3/4 of a copyrighted product is not even writing the words.

Yep, I would agree.

At least 2/3, not even running the words, and that may be a surprise. And the other thing I started to point out in the last episode. I’ll say it again here. Even if you get a good copywriter from another country that you think well, I can get them cheaper. No, no, my friend. They’re using American rates too, because they know their value. Right. And so.

But the bigger the big, the bigger problem with going to another country, though, is they don’t understand American laws or North American laws don’t understand North American culture, the right, the way their culture rights. It’s not. It’s not always the same God like, honestly.

It’s not, but when it comes to like conversion and copywriting and stuff like. That they can, they can navigate that probably a lot easier than some some kinds of articles you might write, but I know a girl. I actually had her on a show of on a girl, a lady from. I think she’s from Nigeria and she’s she’s well known as one of the top best SEO copywriters in the in the, you know, in the industry. And she’s from. Africa and she’s very good. And she’s spoken on stage because she is so good and you ain’t gonna get hurt for cheap. It doesn’t matter if she’s from Nigeria. No, it doesn’t matter. I have a friend from Pakistan. I think he’s from Pakistan. He does a lot of video script writing. He charging Pakistani rates. Our friend, a vendor who’s a web developer, web designer, he don’t charge Indian rates. He’s from India. He knows. So when somebody excels in their industry, it doesn’t matter what part of the globe they’re in. They will start charging rates that mirror. What you and I have, because they’re that good. But you’re right about some of those nuances and certainly that’s why I, I hesitate to want to write anything for anybody in Europe because they they’re it’s even more I I would stick to North America. Thank you on that regard. But Europe has got all these. These landmines that there are laws and regulations and so forth, but anyway I think it’s like any other industry, right? Writing is like any other industry. Somebody’s been around a while.

Yeah, they do. No questions, no questions.

You know they, they know they have better skill set. They’ve stacked skills on top of each other, if you will. They’ve experienced us, right they have and and often people think about this either, right. I have taken $1000 copywriting course. Before. OK, that was not cheap and I have taken other copyright other types of courses before. Some I finished and some I didn’t finish. I have paid for books I’ve paid for PDS. So and.

You, you, you. You belong to a couple of groups where you talked about that you pay for that.

Yeah, I’ve been in a couple of groups that that have and and I accumulate skills and knowledge in all different industries. It’s not, you know, copywriting. Copywriting is a marketing skill. But, you know, I’ll I have learned in SEO communities, I’ve learned in content writing communities, content marketing.

Uh.

I’ve learned in Web website development communities I’ve kind of got my foot in a lot of different stuff and even lately I have crossed over into private online community management and learning about that as well. Because, you know, reality is. I’ll say this, even though we’ve got this. Copywriting really isn’t a service anymore. It’s a skill that everybody needs to have, right? Even if you’re a business owner, you need to have that skill to some degree and and you you fill in when you don’t have those skills. Like you know, if you, if you if you aren’t good or comfortable with creating e-mail newsletters.

No, I agree.

But you want to hire an e-mail copywriter, then you know there’s plenty of e-mail copywriters out there. My friend. That was telling about who does video scripts? I mean, I that’s not my thing. I don’t know how to do those. I’m curious about it, but I wouldn’t send you to him because he’s the guy who writes video. Scripts don’t. Other people do video scripts landing page I I do like landing pages a little bit better. Sales pages I kind of I kind of cut my teeth on landing and sales pages from the school. Copy hackers. Right. Joanna weed. Who’s a who’s a Canadian?

Yes.

And now I have essentially kind of transferred what I learned there to service industry. So because what she does, she trains people to do SAS software as a service, copywriting. I don’t really stay in the SaaS industry so much, although I have a long standing client that is a. Well, not really. Not technically a SAS, but there are SAS like product, but the rest of everybody else on tend to you know. Way more in the service. But products or services you know? But you you as a copywriter, whether you’re in the content marketing side of it as doing long form articles or you’re in the web copy side of it or the e-mail copy or even direct response. We we have to learn. A lot of different skills. And I paid a lot of money for stuff along the way. So when you’re getting me to write something and that and most copywriters don’t rarely want to do like 1 little tiny project and they want to get your retainer or they want to do a big project. Right. You know, so there there’s certain people I would do a small project for.

Not worth it.

But most people, especially new client, no. You know, now I might do it to test some like test working with Someone Like You say you want lady patient. I’ll look them. OK, I’ll. I’ll do a landing page for you. I’ll get you know I have to do it for a minimum amount. You pay me that? I’ll see how like working with you. If I like working with you. You like working with me and want to do some more stuff? Fine. But for the most part, you know I’m not going to do like, one single article. I’m going to want you to commit to the three to five articles. You know, I don’t really do articles for people except for. One customer anyway, so.

So attended at the end of days. Still smell.

You accumulate skills and use accumulate and knowledge and you, expertise and experience. It’s you know what SEO Google talks about the EAT right expertise, authority and what’s the other? What’s the T stand for anyways? Expertise, experience, authority and I forget. I’m drawing a blank on the tee right now, but essentially that’s everybody in in any industry. So a writer is just like anybody any other, any other industry now. The writer, who can set himself or herself apart, in my opinion, is somebody who can assimilate and assess information and make strategic decisions.

I agree with you, I agree.

Some riders can’t or don’t want to, and they’re happy to take the project that you tell them what to do, and they do it for you. Others are just fine, and maybe it’d be more advantageous to you as a business owner to let them think strategically about your business and your project, because a lot of copywriters are very strategic. They’ve learned how to think. Strategic. Think about what you’re doing. I I have said this many times over and you’ve heard me say this. I learn more about marketing from copywriting than any other industry.

Yeah. And there and there you have it. Skills and expertise matter, increasing them matter and I think that’s so well said. If you want to talk to Todd about anything, copy writing copyflight.com bug them on Twitter that if you want to call it that LinkedIn and we’re the social work, right?

Yeah, those are the two that I’m most active on from a business front. Facebook is very personal these days. I don’t do a whole lot of personal.

Now.

Yeah, yeah.

Business stuff on Facebook so X and link Twitter and LinkedIn is pretty much you see more of my stuff there.

Have a great day, Todd, and thanks for sharing your skills and expertise today. Much appreciated.

Thank you. Appreciate.