Episode 17: Talking Apps With Mukul Verma

Show Notes

Sat, 5/29 9:43PM • 38:26



Hey Rob Cairns CEO and Chief Creative, Amazing Ideas at stunning Digital Marketing I’m here today with my friend Mukul over. Now what we’re going to talk about today is the whole aspect of app development apps on smartphones, where they matter, and how they play out in the marketplace and what you as a company or small business unit could do to use apps to benefit you. We met the first times many years ago at a conference in Toronto called word 11. We reconnected, we got talking about apps, and we thought it would be a great opportunity to share the whole app journey with you, the business owner, sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.



Gord Hey, Mukul, how are you doing today? My friend? I’m doing good. How are you doing? Doing? Good. So, you know, you and I have known each other a little bit. We’ve kind of reconnected, we talked, we met originally at wordcamp 2011. Right? Yeah, that’s right, a long, long time ago, at a conference in Toronto. And we got talking again, and you kind of work in the app space, which is interesting. So tell me a little bit about what you do, what your business is, and how you got into the app space. Okay, so yeah, so I’m working in mobile apps I’ve been doing since 2012. So it’s been seven years now. And we kind of were, we were in the web space prior to the app space. And we kind of were looking for something new, we had all these conditions we wanted to do for a business on that. And when the space opportunity kind of came. What nap is, at the end of the day is, is business marketing, programming, and design. That’s essentially what makes up an app. And between me and my partner, we had the design and the business marketing side of it. So we thought we’d have the competitive advantage of getting into the app space. So we got into mobile apps in 2012. We built a number of apps, gotten a number of installs and built a good amount of revenue in it. And as of this year now doing consulting for other apps as well. So now getting into the mobile apps, I’ve had people ask for consulting. And it’s been kind of fun. So now, I’m doing that as well. So we’re on our own projects, as well as consulting for other businesses for mobile apps. And that’s really cool now of us say you went from doing web space to the app space? Why? And what kind of differences are you seeing by being just in a web space to being in the app space? So I think I think with the web businesses we had, we were, we weren’t doing client work on a but they were kind of hitting their cap on what we could do with them. We really couldn’t build them any bigger than we did. And I thought, if we’re gonna do something new, we might as well find something with a huge opportunity. And 2012 you remember, the space is only four years old, right? Like 2008 was when mobile apps actually became a thing, which is kind of crazy now, honestly, because a lot of opportunity for long term game there. And we’ve also sold a number of apps as well, and kind of cashed out on that. So I think the reason we did it was just because we saw there was a lot of opportunities mixed with our competitive skill sets. Yeah. And I think the reason people need to think about apps realistically is we all have a phone in our hands or within a reach from us, right? or a tablet. Like let’s be fair. And I think the last stat I read was 60 to 65% of all searches are done on a mobile device right now. Right? So that would not surprise me, because we’re slowly moving away from computers to apps, say mobile right now, like everything is being done on mobile. Yeah, yeah. And I think for some people, that’s really that’s really understood. I mean, I know, I know, for me, like, I’ll be sitting and the kind of the two apps that kind of come to mind right away from the app space is mobile banking. And I was reading a stat the other day that even in the banking space, believe or not, 70 to 75% of people want to do their mobile banking through the app, not through the web browser. So that’s interesting. In Canada, and the other is ordering things like Amazon, things like online shopping. I know from my tendencies, I’ll go to an app before I’ll look at the browser kind of things. Yeah, absolutely. I’ve seen so many different



With options like you can do payments for a food, just go right into restaurants, pick up your food, right. And everything is done with what’s an app, if your credit card is informations in there, it’s so easy, right? They remember your order from last time, right? Or let’s say you place your order, right on the app, you walk in, you pick it up, you walk out, there’s nothing else that needs to be exchanged, which is super easy. And two good examples of that, like with food that come to mind, right away, one I use all the time to skip the dishes in Canada, right, and your credit cards there, and they deliver it. And the other one is the big one is Uber. I mean, you know, to be honest with you, I’m not I’m not hunting around for money in my pocket, my credit card numbers attached to my Uber account, or my Uber, I get charged, and I’m done. And goodbye and forget about it. Right, you can problem solve.



Okay, so let’s talk about apps. We’re talking about this a little bit offline. So Android, or iOS, and why? Yeah, yeah, we definitely have a conversation about that. Personally, I like iOS, but I think that there is a room for both. So it really depends on the user what they want. If you want simplicity, go with iOS, you’re gonna pay a lot more for it. Right? If you like fiddling around your device, and if you like adding other stuff onto it, right, then Android is definitely the place to go. And things with computers, the same thing with mobile mobile’s the slack, is the exact same way, where guys who like to actually like customize their devices and customize their phone. And Android makes a lot more sense, right? For people who just want simply, simply done. iOS makes a lot more sense. I can go in there’s a lot of differences between Google Play and iOS, I can discuss some of those if you want. Yeah, I mean, go ahead. What are the differences between Google Play and iOS? At the App Store on Apple? So if you look, if you look at the the big difference is, you gotta remember, Apple is a design marketing company, right? So they want things to look pretty, they want things to say, easy to be, if you ever look at their search, their search is just like terrible, right? where Google comes from a search background, right? They are a search company. Right? So they’re more about algorithms, they’re more about data, right? So if you ever go to app stores, like Apple, Apple all the curating data, right, make it look pretty, right? You will, if you want to succeed on the Google Play Store, you need to understand how their algorithms work in the same way with SEO, you need to work with their algorithms. So it’s a very different mindset. The other big difference that we were talking about earlier was money as somebody who’s on the side developing apps, right? And say, it’s been 20, to one from my experience, favoring apple. So I’m going to meet for $20 a week on the Apple App Store, I’m gonna make $1 on the Google Play Store. Now, if I was building a social media network, or if I wanted to get a lot of users, then Android would be the place to be because androids gonna have a lot more users than iOS. Right? Now, if another thing we were discussing earlier was, if you’re looking to complement an existing business, you have to complement something, you’d have to actually do both, because you’re gonna have users on both sides. That that is that is so true. Also, in terms of apps, and I’ve probably used my fair share, I think, before we got on this, I’ve probably got over 100 apps closer 240 apps on my phone, I’m a bit of a hedgehog, I like to try stuff out. And then I get rid of it and try stuff out. And I pay for apps too. I do both.



What works really well, from an app perspective, just a straight app, or an app with in app purchases, and and if you can talk about what in app purchases are for listeners. So in app purchases, basically purchasing something in the app, right? So if you buy like extra virtual currencies, or if you buy goods, or anything you’re buying, like right in the app is considered to be an app purchase. I think I think it’s not really one blanket fits all, I believe monetization has a lot of your user experience. Um, you need to really understand your user experience, like, there’s 25 that we use 25 different ways to monetize. So there’s a lot of different ways to use it, and sometimes just advertise and make sense, right? Sometimes, in app purchases will make sense. Sometimes sponsorship would make sense, right? Sometimes just do the paid app would make sense. I think it really depends on your users and understanding that user experience. Yeah, is there is a sweet spot for paid apps like the number that works really well or does it just kind of depend, there always is a sweet spot for paid apps, but I would say that she’s bright, it keeps on changing because I know at one point, like we were doing 99 cents abs, and then we put it up to 299. And all of a sudden the perceived value was there. But with that 299 we’re giving $25 worth of in app purchases or paid stuff in the free version of the app, because some people would rather just have all the extra bells and whistles they’d rather have your advertisement right and rather do that. So I would say sweet spot really comes with testing depends on the industry. You really got to ask



To find out what works in your market. But that said, there’s always a market for users that just would rather pay up front and don’t want to worry about it. It’s becoming a smaller and smaller market. But there’s still that market of people who would prefer that. Yeah, I think you really do got to test and I don’t care if it’s an apple web property, whatever you’re doing. Many people make the mistake of just Where did you get the number? Oh, I pulled it out of thin air. I’ve heard that more times than I can count. And I’m kind of chuckling as they say that, because we’ve all probably done it at one time, too. And said, Where did you get this number? Oh, 599. Sounded good. Right. So we’ll, we’ll just deal with it. And that’s why I’m hesitant to give you a straight answer on it. Because depending on the person living here, if they own like a flower shop, right? Or if they have like an e commerce website, like it’s a very different, you can’t really say one thing will fit. All right. So it’s like you guys sit down, you got to look at the situation and then figure out the best solution for that. Yep. What are your favorite types of industries to work with? Or design app for? Do you have a job or preference?



My favorite type of industries? So I’ve done a lot in the gaming industry. And the reason I’ve done that is because when we got into this, and we’re working on our own projects, and that’s where the data was, right? We were in an industry that was only four years old. Right? And I’m more analytics. I’m more systems and business processes, right? Like I we got, we were talking about the test data, and you got to use the data to grow, right. And games was where both the data and the money was, at that time. in it that said, we’re now doing other apps, right. Like quotes, apps and budgeting opportunities. iPhone just released a budget app last week. Right, just for our personal on it. But I think I think the standards can be there standards that can be used across all industries are things you need to be doing across all different types of industries. Yeah, I think that’s true. I mean, again, the gaming business has kind of exploded, I mean, you can probably thank Zynga for that, right? They’re kind of like, one of the big guys. But what most people don’t realize with companies like Zynga is they’ve put out 1000s of apps out there like they they they they’ve kind of fought like them, let’s fight the market and see what falls review. Right. So they’ve they’ve just kind of kind of flooded, they’re probably the most norm, but there’s several others out there. And I think but I think they’re starting to be a shift. And I think where the shift is happening is we’re starting to see more productivity type apps arrive on the smartphone as well, right? Yeah, absolutely. Like if I was to start all over again, today, I probably wouldn’t move over to gaming, because that data is now like seven years later, that gay that data is now there in a lot of different apps, business apps, but then the apps, identity just gonna make people’s lives easier. I think it’s whatever you’re adding value to people with your app. And that’s where it comes for, like, people like local businesses, if you’re adding values to make your customers life easier. By is probably the most important thing. Yep. Yep. I know. Like, for me, I just switched project management packages. And one of my requirements was, if there’s not an app on my phone for it, I can check stuff on the fly. It’s not happening.



One of the things we’re talking about offline was Google, and their Google Drive app. But one of the things they do really well on their app is, and I didn’t even know it was there until a couple of weeks ago, somebody mentioned to me, you can actually you don’t have to install a PDF scanner, you can actually do a scan right to Google Drive from the from the app, things like that. They just kind of make your business forward and make your life go on. The whole purpose of the nap is just to make our busy lives a little easier not to not to compound, if you want to put it that way. Absolutely. Yeah, it is. It is a big deal. And I think what’s gonna happen in the future is like, we look at websites today, right? And we see how they’re mandatory. A business without a website is dead in the water, right? Like, you need to have a website as a business. But there was a time where you told the businesses and they’re like, looking at it, like, No, I don’t need a website. It’s costing them but it’s not making them direct money by more than information. Now, now, it’s gotten a lot more complicated than that. But if you’re looking at that time, you didn’t have a website, you’d pretty much be out. And I think the opposite is gonna come the same thing. At some point, like you’re gonna look at an app right now. And you’ll be Oh, my business might not need enough. But I think we’re gonna look back 20 years from now and be like, you know what? I’m not I don’t have an app if people can’t reach out to me easily on mobile. That’s a problem. That’s a real problem. Yeah. And I think what’s driving that is, there’s a couple things. Basically, the people going out and getting full scale computers. So we’re talking desktops or laptops are people in business or people that are working, or people that need them for school, but the casual users are saying, okay, all I need is a phone and a tablet.



We’re seeing that even in the seniors markets are going out and saying, What do I need a computer for? All he needs is phone and a tablet. Right. So I think I think with that shift coming,



there’s going to be a shift in E in the marketplace as well.



Yeah, absolutely. And I think like one thing we’ve had, in the last six years, PC sales have been down every single quarter, and only one quarter last year, they were actually up for six straight years, they’ve been going down. And that proves that the shift is there, it’s already happening. And you just look around us, it’s definitely changed quite a bit. More and more people are doing stuff cloud based. So you know, to be honest, whether you need an iOS or an Android device, even though there’s a perceived marketing thing, I think the differences are, are changing, except for its simplicity, or changing lesson lesson day. I think, I think people you know, what do you look at an app for a certain feature on iOS or on Android? Most of them the user experience is pretty well, the same now? Yeah, I think the differences are getting less and less than it’s






excuse. It’s almost turning into a marketing preference. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s kind of,



because I, so one thing we didn’t talk about before was when I bought my iPhone 10. Last year, I paid full price for a and I started looking at the Android Market, because I think every couple years, you need to kind of look at both markets and be have an open mind to seeing whether you know, I’m an iOS guy, it doesn’t mean that you shut the other side down, right. But what happened is, I have Apple TV, I have an iPad, MacBook Pro, right iMac. So I’m kind of in the economy of Apple already. So all of a sudden getting an Android phone would kind of give me that disconnect. And I think when you say marketing, I think they’re also building the ecosystem around it, where you’ve got people who are already in the Google Home, right? say they’ve already got their computers, they’ve already got all the Google products that kind of go with it. And I think that they’re slowly like, we don’t even realize this, but they’re building that ecosystem where now have to go with their product. Because if you don’t, it’s disconnected me here life easier. I don’t disagree one to one, the markets I like to attribute this to is the did the digital SLR camera market. If you go to a Nikon camera, you’re in that ecosystem, because you’re buying Nikon lenses. So you go to a Canon Canon, you’re in that ecosystem. And I truly think we’re there with the market that we’re in, where if you tend to Google Apple, you you go, it’s easier because of the connections. If you tend to go PC slash Google, you’re kind of and you can throw Amazon into that ecosystem as well, a little bit, you know, where you’re kind of yet aside. And, you know, you talked about Google Home and the home automation market. That’s just a great example. I mean, you either go with Apple sushi, and go Google sushi, and you go to Amazon solution, and then you’re, you’re kind of locked in. So I think you really got to take a good look and say, okay, where do I really want to go? And which ecosystem do I want to live in? And that will drive what type of device you get, what type of phone you get, and, and so on. And I think that’s, like a spot on common Really? Yeah, absolutely. I know. Now, whenever I buy anything, I’m going to be aware that well, you know, what, if I go to police devices, am I gonna be staying in this ecosystem? Am I not? Yeah, right. And I think you said both ecosystems are good. It’s just at this point. There are benefits of each right. Like Samsung’s got way better cameras on it, right? Then Apple apples, apparently with the next one gonna catch up on that. And they’re actually going to be in the same league. But there are, there are pros on both sides. It’s just really what ecosystem Hang on, you’ve got company, Chinese company like Hawaii, or the Huawei who’s in nine, and the camera on the P 30. And I haven’t looked at one, but I I need to very soon because I think my wife’s looking at that one then saying, you know, I like the camera on that their reputation for the cameras is very good. I have I know, I carry an LG thinkyou. Seven, which is last year’s model to send key wages out the camera on it is very good. I mean, I think the camera is as much to drive the smartphone now as what a happy get. I really do. I mean, I think that’s becoming for a lot of people a priority. So it’s interesting. It’s interesting said, because I think the one thing that both Apple and Google Play does is the app market is a byproduct of them selling hardware, right? They make some money. They don’t make a lot of money on the app stores. But this is what sells their hardware. If your app if the major apps, I think now you have to go for both right? If you’re not in the business, if you’re not in the mobile business where you’re making 100% of your money from the app, right, you’re gadi, you got to be developing for both for your customers because they are 5050 but for the longest time



Apple and Google wanted you on their platform because they were selling hardware through what your apps were. Yeah, and I think, and the other thing that was mentioned, just when you talk about the money, and it’s not hardware, it’s not always just hardware. It’s also the patent money. Because if you ever look at, you know, Apple makes a patent every after every Google device sets sold, and vice versa, because they all have interchangeable patents out there. And the biggest patent company of them all, is this Canadian company living up in Waterloo called Blackberry. I mean, you know, they’re not making any money on handsets. They’re not making any money on apps. They’re making all their money in the mobile space on patents right now. It’s, and that’s kept blackberry alive, actually, because they’re making millions of dollars on just what they own. Yeah, yeah. And they’re definitely revolution company. It’s sad to see BBM go next month. That’s unfortunate. Yeah, I saw that. They’re gonna shut that down. But yeah, it’s crazy, because even in black, but there are people who still don’t want to do that live by their BlackBerry’s right there. But I’m not surprised. DBMS being shut down. Because the biggest problem with App messaging is there’s no messaging standard right now. And I don’t know about you, but I have seven messaging programs on my phone. So it’s gotten stupid.



I’ve got WhatsApp, I’ve got Facebook. LinkedIn has its own messaging in their very smart move by Facebook to actually go in the messaging business, because you pretty much had people already there. Yeah. And I think there’s a good lesson in Blackberry, because Blackberry, that was a great company, they were really ahead of their time, they invented a lot. But like we were talking earlier, right? design, programming, marketing business, they didn’t necessarily make it for the common user. But Apple made it really dummy proof. Right? blackberry just did not do that. Now they didn’t, they didn’t. So let’s let’s kind of talk about making money from apps, there’s couple ways to make money. One is in app purchases, which we talked about. One is development for a third party business, right for somebody like yourself, and then there’s, then there’s the sale of the app says or any other good way to make direct money or indirect money for the apps. Yeah. So this is, yeah, this is this a big conversation itself. And I think you’ve covered basically in app purchases that are which could be either unlocking features or offering more credits or letting people I was saving yesterday, the other say, is currency is a big one, when it comes to in app purchases as well. The biggest trend right now is subscriptions. Like it seems like if you look at the top grossing charts, the Netflix right, say, of the world was a it’s subscription basis, probably, I’d say the hottest trend right now and it and apps are definitely moving to a subscription base. Because people don’t mind as long as they’re getting a value add on it, you do need to it is definitely a piece of work, you need to be ongoing with adding value. So it’s I would say with the direct from consumer, then I’d say with our business most has been indirect. So the big one that you didn’t touch on there was advertising. So that that alone probably has a 10 different ways on it. And because that says that you can do interstitials, which is static ads, you can do a rewarded videos, right? You just do regular videos, that you can play blogs, now we can actually play part of a game or part of something, take some actions in the actual advertisement. So you might actually see like an ad pop up, it’ll say make these three moves. Race, you actually get an idea of how the app works before you go the app. And if you like it, then you can always go over there. Yeah, right. So I would say I’d say advertisements, definitely a big one, with all those user experience is really, really important. And I see sometimes this frustrates me because you might have like an app, which is like 20 seconds to a minute to use. And then you show a 32nd video, it’s a it’s like you want to piss your users off, right? We’re forgetting to do something with the short user experience, go put in a static ad and put in something you can click right. If you’re going to do like a four minute or five minute user experience, and you put a 32nd ad in it. That’s cool, right? You really, you really got to think about user experience. If they’re spending more time on ads, and they are using an app that’s just not a good thing to do. The other is rewarded videos or rewarded action. So like offer walls, which include like saving, taking surveys, right and stuff like that, or like watching videos, or stuff like that, where people are getting coins and stuff in it. That’s also been pretty hot the last few years where, where people are not gonna pay for stuff in the app, but they will take an action by a third party and you get paid for that.



Right? Yeah, that’s a big no and I and I get where you’re coming from with user experience. Like when I kind of look at, you know, I’m an Android



When I look at the Google Play Store, and I know before I download apps, I kind of look at quickly to see, is there anything glaring in the review section that’s glaring? And my rule of thumb with reviews is if it’s not well thought out, I kind of ignored a review. But one thing I do look for is the consistency with Google, with user experience. And one of the big problems I see with a lot of apps is the user experience is bad. There’s too many ads, their ads are too long, you know, so you gotta, you got to find that medium to make money. But you want your users there and not not their kind of thing. Absolutely. One of the biggest grapples I find user experience is the onboarding experience. I’m sorry for onboarding users. So just explain that out. Ah, go ahead and explain it. But experiences like when someone first comes in an app, how do they use your app? Right? So like, you press this button, you go here, you this explains the features of an app right? Now there are a lot of apps when they’re developed, the developer is only thinking, Okay, let me make this app and maybe intuitive is up, but not intuitive to the rest of the world. Right. So they are, yeah, remember, most I shouldn’t say most, but a lot of apps are never opened a second time. So the first time you get into an app, how you have that user experience is really, really important. Right? So are they taking the time to do the onboarding experience, right? is a really critical, because your users are going to base it off the first of using your app. Right? I think with user experience that that that quite often gets missed. Yep. All No, no question. Like we always say, people judge books by their cover. I think in apps, people judge it in the first 30 seconds, is it hard to set up? Is it hard to get used to? Is it hard on board. And if the onboarding is bad, I can almost guarantee you, I know from my experience, I’ll take that app and put it in the trash can very quickly, like I’m done. Because there’s just probably five other apps out there that do similar things. And if it’s an if it’s really bad, I just kind of go by unfinished. And and you know, especially in the gaming space, I mean, you know, I kind of looked at a program like Solitaire and people laugh when I mentioned that just probably over 100 Solitaire apps in the iOS store, I would think easy, right? And oh, yeah. And and if it’s awful, why why wouldn’t I just move to the next one? You know? Absolutely. And the thing is, like, and I know that I’ve had this conversation people, it’s like, well, you open the app, you go the menu, you just press this on it, if you want the tutorial, Assistant, torial down here, yes, you’ve been looking at this for a long period of time, and it’s very easy to you. And I’m not gonna disagree that it’s not an easy app to use, but the first time, then they’re just make their life a little bit easier. Right? By saying like, Yeah, yes, it is very intuitive. But sometimes things are intuitive, also need to have that little bit of a walkthrough. And it’s coming back to what you said, wherever the first 30 seconds, you know, get that person and if they just show up to a menu, and they’re not sure what to click, you’re going to lose them. Yeah, so true. One of the things that you’ve moved into with your business, right ladies in the consultant, what kind of consulting you’re doing for apps. So it’s more on the business side of it, and also on the design side of it as well. So what I find is that a lot of apps, the reason I believe that both apps, say most apps fail is when you’ve got programmers are building these apps, or designers are building these apps, but they don’t understand the business and marketing side of it. And that includes things like analytics, right doesn’t talk about testing, things are very much zation, what you’re talking about user experience we talked about, but it’s just like the small things that make a big difference on it. So what I’m doing now is I’ve had people approached me asked me to consolidate, it’s actually kind of fun. So I’m now taking on clients to do consulting with them. But what I’ll do is I’ll sit down, look at their whole business and find things that need to be done like doing this for seven years day in and day out on my own apps, you can see things in a very different way that other people see it. Yeah. So it’s just like find those small, easy wins, that those small changes, which could actually help me make a bigger whip. And the other thing is if people need a new app, so if you don’t have an app right now, and you’re looking to get not build, sit down, have that discussion as well, and helping plan out how to build that very cost effectively. So, so true. And one of the things you touched on is analytics, and I want to go there for a second.



Most small businesses or medium businesses or even large businesses, they don’t know their numbers, and it’s really I know, being a marketer. It’s really frustrating. Sometimes when I sit down with a new client, I said, Okay, what are your numbers? I don’t know. How did you do on this ad campaign? I don’t know. How did you do on your website last month? I don’t know. And and I described not knowing analytics to shooting darts at a dartboard blindfolded, like I really do. Because if you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it and you can’t make it better. Right. So absolutely, yeah.



It is it’s interesting because I sat down with a client who had a successful business six figure business as a government analytics, and they didn’t know. And I’m like, you know what this can be a seven figure business, if you know the analytics in it, right? It’s, it blows my mind where people don’t have analytics. And then it’s pretty basic. I’ll give you an example of it. So one of our apps, we were going through Google Analytics, and we had it in there, and we were looking at stuff. And I found something in there one change by revenue by 25%. And it just blew my mind. It’s how simple it is, like one change that took two hours, all of a sudden, we’re now making 25% more revenue. That is awesome. That’s what that’s the power of analytics right there. Yeah, it happens all the time. And like, you know, if you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it. And that’s, and that’s the biggest thing. So if there’s any lesson anybody listening, I don’t care if it’s apps, a website, or what you’re doing know what your numbers are, because you’ll grow that way. And that’s how you grow your business.



So we’ve talked a little bit about app, so I’m gonna kind of go a little different now.



You work differently than most people are very similar to a lot of people in this space. What are your favorite tools that you use to run your business? Oh, what are my favorite tools to run my business?



So we talked about Google Drive. So we use a lot of Google Drive to collaborate with our team. I use Trello Trello. Trello is a good note taking team and get to be able to keep track on it. Um, Dropbox.



I know that’s gonna make you cringe, but Dropbox.



And I love Trello Oh, by the way, I was a travel user for many, many years. And I was telling you earlier, offline, not yet. One of the things I looked at for a new project management tool, and I was using Trello. for project management.



I’ve actually moved one more step, I’ve moved from Trello to a newer product called notion, which you might have heard of, okay, notion does Trello style boards, but it does other things, too. So it’s kind of integrated. But yeah, anybody who’s looking for a good tool to manage stuff, Trello is kind of a great product I love it actually. Wasn’t was the one that I really like, I use Gmail over, I have my business email addresses, you need to have it on your website. It’s only professionals to do that. But actually send everything in Gmail, because I find the search in Gmail is just amazing. Like, I can pull up in two seconds, every conversation you and I have had since 2011, play it within seconds. And to me that’s like, I don’t even remember this stuff, right? So I actually find that like, it might sound simple, but I find that Gmail search is a powerful tool to escape, escape search for escape earlier. And just like when I collaborate with the team, it’s easier to have a Skype conversation because that way all the notes are there, right? You just use search. Yeah, I would say to anybody looking for an email solution, I mean, our recommended being doing work on the website is for your business as G Suite for that exact reason G Suite. For those who don’t know that you take your domain and send your domain, email, the email. So and it’s not just about search. It’s also about the spam filters. I mean, Gmail has the best spam filters in the industry. By far. I just know, if I take my email out of Gmail, and I start running my corporate email, my spam goes up by 200%. And that just pulls my hair out. And then all the filters, I mean, the labeling and stuff like that I sometimes I’ll show you offline, but I’ve got a convoluted set of over 1000, over 200 Gmail rules that manage my inbox that basically says, If I get an email from here, put it here and get it out of my inbox. And I’m not 200. But I’m probably over 50 for sure. Like go Yeah, yeah, I get that. So I need is there any other tools you like? on there? What else



would I say?



I guess, are you looking at business and generally looking on the upside, or both? Both? On the eye, okay. So I say Google Analytics. Again, for apps, I find Firebase to be really good.



on there, just to keep it. Apple does give you some data. What I find is a lot of people don’t even look at their Apple data, like what they get back in their back end of it and connects, right? Because that actually gives you some data. And the interesting is you can work on like conversion with that, right? Changing icons, changing graphics, doing that kind of conversion, and split testing that is really good. So you see how many people come through like I find that with apps, that’s one thing to over Miss is, you’ll see how many people have actually scrolled by your app, or clicked on your product page. Right and have people converted through? Yep. And small differences can make an easy win to get more installs by doing that. Yeah, I would agree



It’s all on numbers. And those are some great tools. Any tool coming up that you’ve looked at or something new that you’ve kind of said, either in the app space or not in the app space that you say, geez, this is different. This would help I need to look at this. Well, I find it interesting because zoom, like we’re using zoom right now. And it’s like, oh, I have Skype. Why would I need skim? But just the recording of it, and that makes it a lot easier to do. And I think zoom is definitely I’m doing some interesting things. Yep. as well. So that’s, probably has entered my atmosphere in the last six months on it, but I think it’s really interesting. They’re really making inroads. I mean, I’ve been watching, I met a hockey fan. And I’ve even seen some ads on some USA ringers resume on the board right now. So they’re really kind of going all in or advertising more, and they’re putting themselves out there, which is interesting for a company that really made their their mark in the entrepreneur space. I mean, they don’t they don’t do a lot of big business. You know, the golden my meeting is kind of the big business equivalent the Citrix product, and they’re, they’re so not in with the big businesses, but the small businesses. It’s it’s like 90 days. So



it’s been a great conversation. If somebody wants to get a hold of you consulting wants to talk caps, what’s the best way to find you? Yes, go into mobile apps.com is probably the best way m OKOL. A pps.com is probably the best way to say it’s probably the best way to reach me. I can give you my email as well. So it’s it’s Mukul\ m UK, eu l at mobile apps calm as well. So you can reach out to me at all, if you wanna have a conversation on doing an app or consulting and stuff like that. Happy to have a conversation with them, and then go from there. And thank you very much for your time today. It’s been a great conversation and have a wonderful day. Thank you very much. You’re welcome. Bye bye.



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