Episode 122:Talking WordPress in 2020 With Davinder Singh Kanith

Episode 122 Talking WordPress in 2020 With Davinder Singh Kanith

00:00

Hey y'all Rob Cairns the SDM show. This year 2020 has been a really tough year for many people. And Deacon thank COVID for a lot of that, for me, it's been tough from a COVID standpoint and a personal standpoint. And those of you who have followed me know there's lots going on, but 2021 seems to be a better year. I thought we'd take some episodes and look back on 2020 the tough year we've had and take a few and move forward to 2021 so for this special episode, I sit down with my good friend defenders. sinkin word defender, and I look at 2020 the year on WordPress and what we think will come out in 2021. So grab your favorite drink, sit back and relax and enjoy this podcast.

01:02

Morning everybody. Rob cams here. I'm here with my good friend Davinder Singh Kanith can the vendor How are you today?

01:09

I'm doing good.

01:10

How are you? I'm doing great. So the vendor for those who don't know him is very big in the Beaver Builder community and writes the wonderful WordPress weekly that we all like to read on a on a daily or a weekly basis. I think he should write more. But that's another story. How's that project going?

01:31

Awesome. Amazing are the two words to describe it. Like it's not that old, like just four or five months into it. And I've been blown away with the response. And maybe the idea that I had in my mind and thing that I was looking for that is what most people were looking for basically get all the good things in the WordPress without spending too much time in it. So that's like the mood of the project. Like you get to know all the good bits in the WordPress space in less than 10 minutes.

02:01

Yeah, it's kind of one of my go to spot for WordPress news. Davinder does a good job crave curating the news. But that's because multiple people also feed him the news to help him out right to vendor, you get sources.

02:16

Yeah, it's good to have connections,

02:20

solid up building that that community and I have to tell you, folks, if you don't know the vendor get to know him because he's well worth what he brings to the table on a regular basis. So today, I felt we do we're coming to the end of 2020 without the talk about a little bit of WordPress in review for the year. And I'm going to jump into a story that has alienated some people has not alienated other people. And that was a male poet by an automatic that happened a couple of weeks ago. thoughts on that one.

02:55

That was a surprise. First time I'm seeing abroad and getting acquired why it had been recently on appsumo for lifetime purchase. And, you know, it's not just me talking about WooCommerce. But any company who acquires a product that has been a lifetime deal. And someone who has bought that lifetime we d gets those butterflies Will my lifetime deal will be honored or not. So in this case, WooCommerce graciously said that they will be honored, but you know how things are like they will add another plan. And you know how most people do it. But coming to the actual technical part of it, I think it's a good purchase for WooCommerce. Because this will add like in house email marketing features for people who use WooCommerce. So this does give them at least they're giving an alternative to people who don't want to use MailChimp or mailer light or ConvertKit and don't want to spend on it.

03:52

I would actually say as a as a male poet user, and you know, I jumped in on the last lifetime deal right before the buy. I was worried about you. Don't be worried about me. It's I'll tell you the support hasn't changed at all. Since the by the accessibility hasn't changed. I've got a large list. That's why I jumped on the lifetime deal because I'm actually saving money.

04:16

I think I think the employees also moved right.

04:19

Yeah, they moved they kept all the employees intact. And to be fair to to woo and mailpoet woo must have known that male poet had a lifetime deal coming up around Black Friday because they were negotiating at that time so they would have known and I don't think it's a bad marriage. I think it actually gives male poets some stability from a business standpoint. I mean, it's a

04:43

win for both of them like it's money well spent by WooCommerce because they get something that they will have to spend eels in building they got it and mailpoet is quite solid and mature product may not be as mature but now they've got backing big backing to get more mature and to It's

05:01

Yeah, and you know, automatics got some big backing because some time ago earlier this year, Salesforce invested money in automatic. And I remember the ecosystem going nuts and saying what's going on here. And I kind of shook my head at it and said, but this is good because this invest major investment and for Salesforce to get involved. That's a big deal. I mean, they even bought slack this year.

05:28

And it's good for everyone. Because if they are investing in wordpress.com, right, but.com also uses wordpress.org. The software Right, yeah. So in then everything does trickle down to the or the software, which majority of us use, right?

05:44

Yes, it's so true. Um, let's talk a little bit about Gutenberg. My, my favorite or not favorite topic, depending on the flavor of the day. I know I've played with it over the last couple years, you've played with it a little more? What's your take on how Gutenberg is maturing? And as we go to full screen editing with 5.7 coming up? Do you have any feeling on that?

06:10

Well, I think my story is similar to story of a lot of WordPress users. Like when Gutenberg was announced, it was just like, okay, what's that? That's something very different. So I didn't feel I didn't feel any love or hate for it. But as things grew, I started feeling a little hate about it. Like, why are they taking away the classic editor. But now when you see Gutenberg, that hate has converted into love, because, again, your change is difficult. And it could be any change in life. And but as a WordPress user, you spend so much time in the default editor. So when that changes, you do feel a pinch here and there. But now, as of 2020, end, I think I love Gutenberg. And I'm so excited that anyone can build a website. Gutenberg is sort of like a lightweight page builder. Now I this project the WP weekly, I made sure that I didn't use any extra plugin there. So it only uses Astra pro team and Gutenberg default add or default core blocks, no add on blocks. And experience has been really good. Obviously, I need I had to spend more time building it and more time adding custom CSS, which may not be the right way for majority of users, because hey, not many know, CSS here, right? So I think we're building simple websites, Gutenberg is really good as in the current form. But if you're really looking into custom website with a lot of heavy lifting, then obviously someone would look at ACF or use a page builder. However, this new feature of full full site editing, which I've seen the preview, at least, call wise, it looks good, but still got any error to to, you know, make it sort of in a format that is usable by users. Even though you're no longer base or, you know, with wide susceptibility

08:09

Yeah, I would agree I I've actually say, you know, I've been on the fence off the fence kind of all over the map. And I admit that. So I finally broke down two weeks ago and said, What am I going to do with my new personal site, which I have the domain for. And I broke down and said, I'm going to build it out for 2021 in Gutenberg and I'm not going to use anything else system. So I I'm the best way for me to learn a new theme or a new page builders just to say, Okay, I need to do it. And here's what I'm going to use and and just do it. And that's

08:47

exactly that's why I use it on the web weekly. Like I use a strap routine, which is good like which is lean, but I didn't use anything additional there. So you tend to miss few things like if you're using a page builder you don't need a plugin for you know showing email signup box or post manually then you take out four solutions that work but then that's the power of learning process right?

09:12

Yeah, I would agree that's how that's to me the best way to learn I'ma do it want to know guys, so give me a project. Let me figure it out and and do from there.

09:24

Mind you the pages on pvp. It's on hosted on the same server, same configuration, blah, blah, blah. It loads so quickly, because the markup is so minimal in that Yeah,

09:34

yeah.

09:36

Watch jump on to. I was debating whether we were going to go into the world of hosting but I think I'm going to avoid that topic just because my feelings have been well known across Facebook lately how I stand on hosting,

09:54

I think into hosting Miss

09:57

again. It seems, since you brought it up, let's go there. It seems what happens with houses, they get really good for a couple years. And they satisfy certain parts of their population, and then it gets so good, their prices go up. And they forget, sometimes we're what's built them to where they are. And that's

10:22

true for every kind of business, not just like, when you get flood of customers, you forget the value that you've been giving to your base, because now you have more base to cover, and you don't really care if some part of that base goes away, which, in the end is very detrimental in the long run. So there's that.

10:45

So yeah, there's, I'm not gonna call the host out. But if you really care, go look at my Facebook page for the last three weeks. And it's all right, I will I will say I'm I'm much happier since I've decided to move and I think the last time I moved hosts was about four years ago. So I mean, this, you know, it's just a case of evolution in each changing and requirements changing. And I'm not to be fair, I'm not a heavy support guy. I'm, I miss technical in many ways, as you defender and you know, we don't, we don't do that. So let's, let's deal with hosting, um, WordPress, 5.7 is coming around the corner. And PHP eight, I believe is now released or close to being released. Do you have any thoughts on Nat or PHP, and WordPress 5.0. A

11:36

few companies have started, you know, already adding PHP eight support to their, you know, WordPress setup, like kinsta has already, you know, launched it in for there. As an optional, obviously, you need to be careful about the plugins that are used, that you're using, whether it's compatible with PHP, eight, because that isn't the only concern, because WordPress, by default will work fine. Your hosting, if it supports PHP eight, then it's fine. It's just the end tail of the elephant, which is the plugins and themes that you need to be careful about. And it's good that because as we move to the newer version of PHP, things get faster, it gets less resource intensive. So it's good for everyone, like more people can have more functional rich websites on similarly powered, you know, so, yeah.

12:29

Now what I will tell you just interesting. I'm working for a company right now. And we do a lot of LDA, which is accessibility compliancy, which is big in North America right now. And the minute you start changing and narrowing a migration to PHP 7.4, which is the stable release to running an older version, and what I'll tell you is even moving to 7.4, it breaks six. So what I would suggest to anybody who's thinking about going to PHP, please, please, please do a database backup and a backup beforehand. And make sure you don't do anything silly. I mean, when you're doing migrations, the key is always to do a backup in a database backup. And I would go so far as to suggest, the best and easy way is actually to go into PHP myadmin and export your database and just do an FTP backup. So if you need to throw it back up too quickly, you can. Not, not the tools like the updrafts in the backup buddies are bad, but in this case, it would just do it but don't do. Don't do that type of a switch without having a backup, please, because you'll cut yourself grief Ray calendar

13:40

sent me a big group because a lot of things won't work. But I guess that, you know, routine should be followed for any update, not just PHP, even for WordPress. But guess what, majority of us don't follow that. No, I

13:53

know, I know. So much. So God, in my business, I've actually switched all my clients to twice a week updates instead of once a week updates as a value added in the last. Well, when it's all automated. It's not too bad to do. But I've made that switch. And the reason I've made that switch, frankly, is what we're seeing since COVID hit because a lot of us are at home right now, especially in North America. We're talking about in the pre show and you are saying India is not locked down, Ontario is locked down. And because we're all at home, guess where the hackers are folks, they're all at home as well. So they have nothing better to do. Yeah, and I don't know about you, but I'm seeing an increase of 1000 to 2,000% on hack attempts. So websites.

14:40

Really,

14:41

yeah, really the bots stuff.

14:44

I'm not that I'm not into those things. I do have security software installed on mine sites, which do tell me I had this many attacks, and they were blocked. So I guess that's true, right?

14:57

My my big security stack as most people Was wordfence a shout out to the guys and to Kathy's aunt and the whole wordfence team?

15:06

And I bet barks

15:08

Yeah, choose it, choose your choose your plan, WebEx is just as good, I believe. Okay, so let's talk about what you would like to see in WordPress 5.7, which is around the corner, anything you want to see, as a developer?

15:26

I think more majority, the only thing I you know, for last one year, we've been into this transition phase of blocks, right. And the ecosystem has shaken up a little. And there is page builder ecosystem, which is stable sort of it but they also have the fear at the back of the mind because of Gutenberg, because a new ecosystem has developed for Gutenberg, which is Gutenberg add ons you've seen like every company is building their own, you know, and they are good, they are not just you can brush them under the carpet, they actually good. They are almost like the page builder version of things that actually is built on core blocks, and they work really well, obviously. But the problem is that basting is still work in progress the whole blocks. So what I would like to see like, obviously, it's a wishful thinking, but I would want that full set editing comes quicker and it comes faster because it was supposed to be released in December, I think, but they had to reschedule it because of some development lag and all that. So but then it's like expecting people to speed up development when you have limited resources. So when you have volunteers in the case of WordPress core, most of those people are not allowed those people are not paid employees, they give back to the community big time. Yeah, but the good thing is now a lot of WordPress based companies are you are contributing to that, you know, voluntary stuff by paying themselves to the employees which is really good like Yoast is doing it and few other companies also. So that's there so my it's just I want more stability in cold block so that they can because the next big evolution is we'll set it in once the core basic structure of how full set everything would work and look, I think it will change how we see teams and how teams are sold on certain set of feature sets because they really take away budgets and all those stuff like you have everything that you can browse template twice. So I'm already used to that to some extent using beaver Thema on Beaver Builder because it lets you build headers, footers, and I'm sure you can do the same thing in Elementor

17:42

as well. And believe it or not even in a theme like Aveda which as you know I like the new full page builder and Aveda lets you do exactly that you can go yes

17:52

so it's not that we are not familiar with this concept has been there for a long time like you can build parts of the theme with certain things. But the way they are implementing it is little different. But I guess when you have the core stuff done, then the add ons that would be available for you know Gutenberg, they will also add more features and make it more easy and accessible for users to build.

18:18

I think the concern though with the add ons and correct me if I'm wrong the vendor is the more add ons you add the more bloatware you add, which means you're back to the same old problem. If you install a page builder, do you sold the site down if you install the wrong add ons to slow the site down? Right,

18:33

exactly. It's you're actually getting into the same kind of mess someone you know, a few a year back, someone's had Oh, with Gutenberg, all the plugins will be gone and we will only have blocks stuff right. But let me tell you what is blocks blocks is also a piece of code and it's also a plugin right? It's instead of spewing out of settings page it is it is spewing out a block that you can drag into your nothing is the same it's like building a parallel economy or a parallel mess that we already have. So because in WordPress education is very important now with blocks and with single blocks directory, it's like inviting big mess like for 10 different functions, you're gonna install 10 different single blocks from 10 different portals. You can imagine how

19:23

that's why when I'm building out my new personal site over between the holidays and being off I'm actually going to use just core blocks that's why I use

19:32

the same thing in case someone wants to use an add on block instead of using a single add on block use blocks add on election pack from some reputed you know creator like this one from generate press. Yeah, team generate blocks and one from Astra people and they are bunch of others like stackable cube Li and all that those are like And that is like sort of a page builder kind of a thing. So in that things breaking would be very minimal because one author is controlling everything.

20:08

Yeah. And I think the other thing people need to think about and we've been at this crossroads in a long time in the WordPress community without the plugin so autumn being free people not wanting to pay. I mean, there's people even running the free versions of Elementor Beaver Builder because they don't want to pay extra for those. And what I would say to that guys is, you know, if you're 50 bucks saves you hours of coding, it's probably well worth your developer time to pay for the add on your foot does some sort of the site down right the vendor like?

20:41

Absolutely, the problem is we see the price tag but we don't see the value that's coming. As soon as you understand the value something is bringing you with that price tag. Things don't look that expensive.

20:54

Yeah, I know like even for something like VEDA to give people an idea VEDA sells for about 60 us stead of Black Friday special for 3999 us and you know I can throw together front page innovative without the content in like five minutes does that you know, literally, and beaver builders the same which I've used in Elementor is the same which I've used. And all the big page builders Divi is the same like once you master your tool, it's easier just to just to do it, right.

21:25

Yeah,

21:25

because we all spend so much time and energy in deciding which is page builder, I need to use Hey, my friend uses this. So I need to use this. But you don't need to use what your friend use it. If something that you're already using works for you just stick with it.

21:40

Yeah, that's the your theories a lot like mine with that. Do you see anything interesting coming up with REST API or application passwords, which has been kind of all the rage lately, to me, feelings on either those two are no

21:56

application passwords. That feature has been in use for wrong reasons, like everyone is scrambling to disable it. Which is true to some extent, but then again, because that thing, majority of people who use WordPress, they won't understand that thing. So and if someone who's installed a security program like wordfence, or bibox, right? So as a user, I want that I should be protected against everything that I don't understand, right. So by default, these program disabled this, you know, application passwords feature in the back end. But you have the option to enable it, which means I actually had someone comment about it. Like I said, it's good that it's disabled, but then someone commented, I don't remember the name of the person. But he or she said that this disable culture of canceled culture should not be encouraged, you should educate the user about this thing and all that, which looks good. But guess what, who has time to get educated in WordPress ecosystem, right?

23:02

As I say, not an end user. I

23:04

mean, I've, I've been a proponent for years, like I'm a big, I'm a big fan of giving users access to stuff. But I'm not a big fan of educating them and stuff. They don't need to know if we were so good at educating ourselves, not just even end users, if even the people who build websites like me and you and others, if we were so good at educating ourselves with all the code and all that stuff. We won't be using themes that were packaged with tons of features, we won't be using page builders, he would be coding all the stuff ourselves, right. But then it's a question of time and money. Right? If I'm going to custom code a website, it will take me a lot more time. But will I get that much money? No. Because WordPress economies very different than other you know. No, I

23:49

agree with I agree with you. I mean, one of the trends You and I both see a lot in the groups because we both spend time you run a group by spend time in the group says the big trends are one, how do I make my site faster? people still don't understand that images, like I go did 100 K or less theory. So that's kind of to to what's my web host, hence my rants on Facebook lately? And three, how do I get the site done cheaper? Because I have no money. And I keep saying that people but if for websites bringing you in $5,000 clients, then how do you expect to draw those type of clients on a fight on a $1,000 budget, right?

24:34

That's the problem. Like we want to build a website like this is the problem is a specific set of people coming into the ecosystem. They want to have a website number one, they want to make money on the website. They want to get clients of the website and they want to make it a part of business. But the problem is they don't spend money on it. So it's like they want to make a website like a business that will Return without an investment, which isn't true in any form of business or entrepreneurship.

25:05

No, I agree. And I think what we need to realize as WordPress people, we need to stop underselling our stuff ourselves. So, and stop giving stuff away as we move into 2021. So there's been all these discussions, and I saw you involved in one last week about paid discovery, right? And we need to stop doing stuff for people that gives them value for nothing. Like we've got to say to people, hey, this is the cost of this. And the problem is, there's always somebody that's prepared to undercut that. So that makes it really hard, doesn't it?

25:44

Yeah. Because, you know, this free consulting and all that stuff only exists, I think, here like in our ecosystem, like, do you go to a doctor, and you go for a consultation? Hey, I've got the symptoms. What do you think? Like, is the doctor gonna do a free consultation with you? Yeah, no, right? No. So I think we need to identify, it's us who have dissolved over value, we need to, you know, come back and, you know, reflect the value that you give, because, again, our ecosystem is, the problem is our ecosystem is so diverse. There are so many layers. And secondly, there is no standardization. So they are two people who will say developer parameter, well parameter, but you really don't know who is actually a developer.

26:29

As we move into 2021, what things do you want to shave ecosystem?

26:37

I think more interaction more learning. The good thing is more diversity is already coming. Like you see more. Not, not people coming from not so expected places, which are, generally, traditionally were ignored, primarily because maybe they never felt coming out, or they were not given the opportunity. That's the good point. Like, this year, it's been all about diversity, obviously, there are two sides of the same coin, like, there is good thing people are coming out. But then there's something that some people are just positioning themselves as politically correct by getting into that diversity thing. So you got to be you got to walk carefully here and identify who is there with its true intentions. And other than that, I think, again, price discovery, something that everyone should focus on, because if someone charges low, the whole, it affects the whole ecosystem. And because it builds the perception, like if I'm saying, I'm going to build a website for $5,000, and someone is selling, say, for $50 $100 $500, then, you know, they won't ask that person, why are you selling for $500? They will ask me the question, why are you charging $5,000? Now that is the problem.

28:04

Any any other thing? I think, going into 2021, I personally think and it's kind of one of my spots in my wheelhouse. We got a we got to work on more security. There's a lot of developers that are jumping in and creating sites. And, you know, I get involved after the fact. And I kind of looked at the sites and said, And where's the security on your site? And why are you still using admin as a login ID? And you know, and it's just like, I think securities and backups is becoming more and more of an issue by the day, and I don't mean letting your host do it or doing a managed backup. I mean, taking responsibility for stuff yourself. And if you don't do it yourself, get somebody to do it for you. Because I think it's I think hack attempts are way up again. We've been falling. I know if you've been following the solar wind story in North America, with all the Microsoft and Google despite they deny being hacked last week, they were and all of that mess and a major security firm, who's got ties to all kinds of Fortune 500 banks and financial companies. So I think we're gonna see more of that this year. And it's getting more and more sophisticated by the day to absolutely. I mean, we read, you read being a web RX customer, you probably read their blog pretty regularly. We all read places like the AI teams blog and Hacker News for exactly that reason, right?

29:36

Yeah, but the problem is it's just because we redid our ecosystem is very small. Ideally, there should be read by a lot more people.

29:44

I agree. And the other thing we're seeing, I mean, it's even big plugins, like contact form seven last week. Yeah. Was it was to me, came out of nowhere, like, I mean, people either loved that plugin or hated it. Kinda a standard for people trying to do contact forms on the cheap, let's be honest, right? I don't use it. So I don't, I either use fluent forms or I use, frankly, the built in forms right into Aveda. Now they have their own form structure built in. But the reality of it is contact form seven. And that's a problem with millions of installs. We're not talking hundreds. Yeah. And that came out of nowhere. And to be fair to the team up there, they did patch that pretty quick, like it was done and gone.

30:36

They were quick to fix it. So as long as people are fixing things, because eventually things will break here and there, as long as you can fix it. That's why it's good that you use only those tools which are backed actively by the people or the creators. So that and that is where the premium market comes into place. Using free for everything isn't a good thing.

31:02

I was listening to our friend Mr. Bob done this podcast the other day, Bob WP well known in a good friend of ours and a friend of mine, and he had on all his hosts and mendo was talking about I believe what was Mendham was talking about in a previous episode recorded last month, that five years ago, we all talked about mobile first, right? And we went through that trend, and mendo and Bob is a woo person was actually preaching that maybe we should be preaching WooCommerce and online shopping. First, you have any thoughts on that one?

31:39

I think these trends change with the time like, like during, like four or five years back when responsive was responsive layouts, and you know, having good layout on mobile phone, that was all rage. And I still remember at those days, people were selling website being responsive as a bonus add on, in addition to existing website. And now responsive is like default feature. If you're getting a website, right, it's not something that you want to create, obviously, then WooCommerce came into the scene and suddenly selling things on WordPress became so easy, right? But then WooCommerce has its own, sort of like, it has become a big monster. Now there's so many things that are right in there. But there's so many things that are not right there. So but the good part about now is like people have options. So if you don't like WooCommerce there's other options even in WordPress ecosystem, you can use add to sell it, there are other, you know, plugins that you can use. And if you don't like setting up on WordPress, then there are SAS options like Shopify. So these trends change. And now if you see like we are in the so called WordPress bubble, but if you see outside WordPress, a lot of people use no code solutions. And they use it why because it gives them a quick Head Start without investing in a developer to build something and there is no code solutions are really good. And, and people are now building those because there is a demand for it. Because now, the urge to become an entrepreneur provide a solution is more than ever before. Now people want to spend time solving the problem not building the infrastructure to actually solve the problem.

33:27

And the state of the world we're in with COVID and people trying to stay at home is probably pushed us more to a ecommerce trend. Like one of the trends I think companies should look at is if you're a restaurant, or something like that, maybe you shouldn't go to an Uber Eats or a skipthedishes and get them to build out your ordering structure. Maybe you should take the money upfront, build your own structure, and be done with it. Because in the long run, frankly, you'd save money. But the small shops are not big or small restaurants are not thinking of things that way. I mean, and frankly, I think going into Christmas season I was reading a stat that online shopping is up by 80%. I know typically, I by being a computer geek who would have it. I buy all my stuff online I have for years. And this year, I did buy one gift in a store that wasn't either online or curbside pickup.

34:29

Yeah, things have changed because this year, I've done very little offline shopping let's spin on it I usually don't buy I only buy your electronic stuff online. But other than that, I don't usually buy things online, but this time, most of the stuff that I needed for my own thing was online. So because COVID has made everyone be online more I guess. So and now people are more comfortable also being because they have no other option like Either you risk COVID and go offline shopping or you stick with the online stuff.

35:05

Yeah. And the other reality is, and it's not really a WordPress issue, but it's a communications issue. We're lucky now if you know, we've got tools like zoom, Microsoft Teams, which I use at work, I've become such a team's guru lately. It's not funny. You know, I'll go to my meeting, we can jump on and do a call like this. And I don't know where we would have been 10 years ago, the tools weren't the same. It was harder to do this. I mean, we could, but it's not the same level. And, you know, it's funny, we talk about, you know, I've never been a slack fan, I have to tell you, and, and with my, my new employer, I'm actually using teams in the messaging in teams more than I've ever used before. So what's with that? You know, so things are changed.

35:59

Yeah, it all depends on what you're using, or do you want to previous Ben sly actually came on the scene, I loved it. But after a while, I realized it's just draining my time. Because it's like, it deserves your instant attention. Like it's like a 24 hours. Messenger. Right? So you just go there. Ooh, who's messaging me? Let's see who posted this. So I'm out of slack. Now. I just don't, I was part of many slack groups. Now. I'm still part of it. But I just log in, there's just

36:29

no, I have not gone down that rabbit hole at all. I mean, and I I've even I mean, for me, one of the biggest trends going nuts Sure. Even cut down Lee, as you know, my Facebook done quite a bit. I, I talked to the people like you who I want to talk to and the rest of the world, they kind of look at that and say, I'm not kidding, in that conversation. I've seen that conversation. So, um, where do you see yourself moving as a developer in 2021?

37:00

We'll see I don't call myself as a developer, because again, I was I think I can understand I do understand code, I write code, I design, I call I like to call myself as an implementer. Because there are many people who are better than me, but then, I don't know, maybe it's an imposter syndrome. So where do I look? Myself next year, I think I will be doing more of my own stuff, like, I'm trying to, you know, shift the needle for last three, four years now, like, from 100%, client work, building websites to, you know, having your own content sites, affiliate marketing, courses, to resources and all that, I've already shifted that from 100, to 30%. So now the split is almost like 6040, I want to tell our owner, flip it over, like, make lesser websites, I still love and enjoy making websites. But as of now, I only work with people who have been working for so many years now. Because there's there's a comfort level there. I rarely work with a new client for the last one or two years now. Because never felt the need to be honest, start short, like, God has been great, like my existing clients and agencies I work with, they are really awesome. And I give them the highest quality work, then I get the time, remaining time I invest in my own stuff, which also generates money. And but more than money, it gives me satisfaction. That is very important, because websites or website, like you build it and you move to the next one. But when you have your own project, that's like a constant high energy and you know, constant satisfaction. Plus you get to, you know, build connections in the community. Like even I met you on Facebook,

38:52

a couple years, a couple years ago, and you and I, despite being across the world have developed an amazing friendship over two years. And there's something to be said for that.

39:03

Absolutely. It's just be a part of the ecosystem. It's just we connect better, I'm sure there are so many connections like we have. We do have in other people as well. So that is the beauty of the community. But then you have to be there and get out in the community because I see a lot of people actually don't participate in the community. They just are happy with their agency website and dealing with clients, which is fine, but then I think if you want to learn and share and grow as a person, it's good that you start interacting with humanity because you tend to one maybe at a very high position. But when you interact with someone who is new, you actually learn more things. Then you will learn from an expert

39:44

Oh, I I saw a great because sometimes we get tunnel vision for what we're doing. I think this year, it was funny. Somebody is asking me what I was working on this year besides my switch to a full time job. And I said frankly I really don't want to build websites anymore. I'm at that point where I don't mind doing the maintenance side of it. I don't mind doing the security side of it, but I'm not so sure I'm going to spend a lot of time building from scratch. And one of the reasons for that move is I think people are unrealistic. They want the Rolls Royce on the Pinto budget, and that's, you know, a bit of a problem. And then you always get into this with clients, what does the contract say? And they say, That's not good service. And I said, but what did you sign? And, you know, it's that, you know, clients like to sign contracts, and then like he did to give on those contracts. And that's a bit of a problem, too. So I've kind of decided I, unless it's a well known client or somebody I know Well, I've kind of decided I don't want to build sites from scratch anymore. I'm I'm act that

40:49

Yeah.

40:50

Because contracts are such a boring thing. Can you imagine I'm not done any contract for last two years, because people I work with the level of honesty, the level of trust is so much that I just don't need to, I don't even have to tell them this, this thing is gonna cost them this because we have the established set of rules and protocols. So that that feels amazing. And it's sort of a freedom also, because you know, how much writing one website contract can consume your time, not just time it consumes more of your brain than time.

41:20

That's true. And it gets dicey. And I mean, for me, contracts have gotten me out as you know, a mess and so that's kind of my go to vendor thanks for joining me, why don't you tell people about your WordPress weekly project and how they can get in touch with you on the interweb Okay,

41:41

so if you are if you are a WordPress user and want to know all the good stuff that happens in the WordPress community at all new plugins on your tips, tricks, news, who bought who, who sold off, who got the website scared, security scared, now that's too long. So you get all that good stuff that can be read in less than 10 minutes every Monday in your email. So you just have to go to wp weekly.com and put in your email address and sign up for the free newsletter. Alternately, you can also read it on the website. And of course share with your friends WordPress friends, not friends who don't understand WordPress, they will consider you alien. So that's the pitch and if you want to connect with me I am I the vendor is an iPhone followed by the vendor. It's either when they're everywhere go to either when the.com either when they're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, I guess that's about it. says But again, I won't spam

42:48

the vendor. Thank you for your time Happy Holidays, and cabaret after Happy Holidays and we'll talk to y'all soon.

42:55

Thanks so much. You do Thank you.

42:58

Very Special thank you to the vendors and Ken to join for joining me this week to look back at 2020 and look forward to 2021 in the world of WordPress thanks to vendor it's always a pleasure to speak with you. This podcast dedicated my late father Bruce Cairns and  my wife Jill McLean-Cairns so have you both very much. If you want to get in touch with me, you can email me VIP at stunning digital marketing comm go to my website stunning digital marketing.com if you go there and go to stunning digital marketing comm slash free sign up for our weekly newsletter of tips, tricks, and things to help you with your business and how you succeed in the fast paced world of digital marketing. Please keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars and make your business succee