Episode 307 WordPress 6.2 With Anne McCarthy

Show Summary

Rob Cairns sits down with Anne McCarthy and talks about WordPress 6.2 .

Show Highlights:

   1. What is coming in WordPress 6.2 .

   2. The coolest features in WordPress 6.2

   3. When are we going to update the WordPress Admin Dashboard?

   4. When are we going to fix the Media Library?

Show Notes

Everybody Rob Cairns here and today I’m with my guest, Anne McCarthy from automatic. How are you today, Anne?

Doing great.

It’s always good to have you. It’s good to catch up. A lot’s going on with 6.2 and WordPress Beta three came out today. As is this. According how’s the stability of debate is going so far.

It’s going well. I’m actually one of the Co core editor triage leads, so I spend most of the time looking at the. Ways in which it’s. Not stable, so it’s always fun to be asked that because. I’m like I could. Rattle off 10 things that I’m worried about, but on the whole it’s incredibly stable. Kind of think back to the 5.9 release or even the last couple releases. Things feel really solid and I think a lot of that’s due to a lot of hard work from contributors moving forward. These features, long before the beta period came up, so I actually feel really good about the cycle of things and the pace of work and the features that have gone in.

And I and I’ll say from somebody who is in and out of WordPress on a daily basis, I think the stability hasn’t been a big issue. With the six one and the 611 releases they’ve been handled really well, so kudos to the entire release team and everybody else has worked on it. It’s a big. We’re taking one of the things we were talking about before we went there and I thought we’d jump in there before we really dive into. 6.2. We shouldn’t use WordPress because it’s open source and I’m going to open that can of worms because I like to.

Sounds great.

What’s your feeling on that?

I find it to be and we were. If you were going back and forth on this, it’s very short sighted and narrow and it feels like fear mongering or a lack of understanding of how the Internet works and what it’s built up. And I I get it though, because there’s a certain thing where explaining the concepts of open source, it’s almost like it takes 10 minutes versus it takes like a minute to kind of dismiss open source. And so I think for today’s world where, you know, we might want it fast and we want to have something that’s like, I think some folks. Want a proprietary thing? They. Think that that is safer. There’s a lot. Of education that has to be done. And that’s one of the things actually, I think the next generation I’m really interested in is they don’t necessarily want the slick tools, they don’t want the next like the tracking that we have in place or like if something is too smooth, there’s like kind of a creep factor. And I’ve been reading a lot of research around how the next generation would rather have something that’s like. Not as smooth, but that’s has better privacy. Or that’s in line with their values. And so I think there could be some really interesting stuff around educating folks on open. 1st and how it actually works so that we aren’t just stuck in that loop of that.

And and frankly, without open source, we wouldn’t have the Internet as it is today. I mean, I can remember at a time and I’m a little older, so I’ll I’ll say that is when we dealt with servers called Archie, Veronica and Gopher. Back in the day before the web was prominent. So without all that collaboration, I don’t think we’d be there. And a lot of people forget. That most Internet services are based on the Linux operating system and Linux is as open source as anything else out there. So I think people need to realize what’s actually driving the Internet before they make comments like that. To be honest with you.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think it’s. I think it’s almost the reason we were talking before is because there’s a nonprofit that I worked with who is switching away from WordPress and so. And that was part of the reasoning that was given and it was. Really amazing to read. The e-mail that was sent from the agency that they were trying to work with and it just is. It feels almost like unethical. Because I would. Rather, explain all the options, get all the things out on the table and then if someone chooses not to do open source for whatever reason like, that’s fine. Like OK, they’ll deal with the consequences of it after, but it almost feels like a sleight of hand. Like they’re getting someone on a different platform without understanding the fool. The full situation, and I think it’s when people are working in that realm, I think it’s really important to have.

All the facts on the table so true and I believe in it so much. I was sharing with you that this weekend. I’m speaking at Park Camp Toronto, which is a big podcast conference and one of the things in my presentation is if you want to host a website. For your podcast away from your podcast host, hosted on WordPress, so that’s kind of where I sit and I. There and I have a multitude of reasons for that. So I think that’s the way to go. So thank you for clarifying that and. So 6.2’s coming out, exciting time. There’s a beta label coming off and this beta label has caused so much controversy. Out in the community, how do you feel about that? What’s going on with the beta label and why now?

So this is a really good can of worms to dig into and I’m really excited to talk about. I will not caveat this, but I will frame it as. Dig into the features that are coming to 6.2 to understand the beta label removal. I think sometimes people will fix it and the bait label removal without understanding the progression and the evolution that’s happened. So to start, it’s like 5.9 introduced the site editor. We added a beta label which I think is the first time in like. WordPress history that that’s been added. So it’s been through. Multiple major WordPress releases like this experience and these tools and these fees. So there’s a lot of stability there in terms of thinking about how the futures are ready for production and happen at the same time. There’s kind of. Like different perspectives that float around. So from the theme the black theme author point of view. So I’ve talked to a number of black themes in the community and they’re they’re frustrated because they’re building. The latest and greatest black themes. But then when they try to give it to clients, it has a beta label. So it’s confusing, right? It’s like I’m building production ready stuff. This is ready for a live environment, but then people will get held up on the beta label. So in terms of adoption, they’re saying to think out there in terms of like the business of WordPress, like how do we, how is it compelling to build a block theme if there’s. A beta label on it, right? On the flip side, there’s also concerns from the accessibility community. How do we make sure the site can be used for everyone and they have?

I’ve been.

Talking with a number of folks there and there’s been a lot of work and discussion around. Prioritizing issues across the different feature sets, but that’s a huge thing to think about. Is like, how do we make this available for everyone and not just for a small subset? And then you think about like the? Wider end user audience kind of. Going back to the Block team author point of View, where it’s like there’s a number of folks from VIP clients to just like the average person who. You know why? Again, why would they be drawn to a beta label software? So in terms of removing it, it’s partially to aid adoption, partially because the experience is more stabilized and ready. Like I I think of the 6.2 release as setting the stage for both the present and the future of WordPress in many many ways. And I think it’s a really exciting time and I think the Bay label. Being moved is a. Marker of it and I think of 6.2. It’s an invitation to folks and a signal to folks with this removal that there’s both a number of features that are coming in this release and the experience in general has been refined to a point that we feel confident about having it open for everyone.

And I and I would say from my perspective and I know from many people’s perspective, this is like one of the most exciting times and I’ve been in WordPress for probably 14 years or 15 years and that’s probably one of the most exciting times out there with full site editing with blocks, with Gutenberg with that. Whole ecosystem, I think it’s it’s a great time to be a designer in WordPress. It’s a great time to make things happen. And I’ll share with you, I was building a site this morning that I looked at and I thought, oh, this is gonna take me a couple of days and with blocks and the right block add-ons, I was able to put site together in five hours. So that that tells you something, right?

Yeah, that’s very cool. I love that’s one of the things my dad always has a bunch of side. Projects and every once in a while, if I have time, I’ll tell him to like throw a site my way and I’ll like I’ll build it. Just tell me what you want. Just as like a good to stay in touch with a practical example. We have like outreach program calls for testing, but there’s something about having like a hands on projects and I feel really grateful to folks who write about their experience and share that feedback. So we can learn from them too. But yeah, it is a very exciting time. I think the the final piece of this is something that WordPress always balances is how do we release things that benefit a large number of people. And you know, because there’s also this element of if we hold back the site editor, that also is an opportunity cost and causes damage because as we talk at the top of this call, someone could go to Squarespace or Wix or wherever. And so how do we continue to be cutting edge as WordPress and without like moving forward in a way that’s like unsustainable or unethical? So it’s a lot to balance and it was a very. The thoughtful decision process, and it’s all out in the open and public.

So, and I would say a lot of it is frankly is agencies just not wanting to retrain their brains. I mean, I’ve done that. I was all in with page builders up until about a year and a half ago. And then I decided the site that was gonna go to the new way of doing WordPress modern WordPress as Brian Gardner likes to point the phrase. If you’ve heard that term kicking around and a shout out to Brian for what he does for the community and his team over at WP engine, they do a great. They I decided to go on a live site and the live site. I decided to move was my own which is risky in some sense but not risky in another because as I like to tell the story, I didn’t move on a site to a dev site and then a development site. Back I did it piece by piece because I had so much going on at the time. So I will tell people please don’t do that. It’s not. It’s not the best of ideas, but but I will. I will say it was a learning experience and now that I’ve moved that site I do not use a traditional old school page builder. I’m all in with a block based page builder. In my case it’s core box that come built in the WordPress and it’s the cadence ecosystem. I’ve gone that. And I think there’s a multitude of reasons for doing that. So I think I think things are going in the right direction personally.

Yeah, I agree. It’s it’s very exciting. The possible is it opens up for for folks like yourself and for designers like you were talking about before, it’s. Like you can. Basically, build a block theme in the site editor or build a site. Like it’s kind of a wild. Plan where those gaps are just closing and closing and closing.

Yeah, and it’s getting easier and easier and easier too. And and what I would suggest, any agency or developer designer out there is just cause it’s getting easier. Please don’t start dropping your rates because remember, customers are paying you for your expertise, not an hourly rate. And we need to be very careful. We don’t undervalue our expertise in what we’re doing.

Yeah, and that’s a great. I I want to add on to that, because part of you know, part of the discussion on the site is like it’s opening up so much access and possibility, but there’s another side to this right is curating the experience. And so I actually just pushed an update earlier today to documentation around. That to keep. It up to date with 6.1 and 6.2 because there is a developer Doc. All about curating the other experience. Meaning what if you lock the interface down a little bit or provide certain defaults, but you limit customization further for a user? Because let’s say someone doesn’t need all the bells and whistles of the site editor. Part of you know, being an expert in the agency space is offering a more locked down experience where you can go in and perhaps like make the tweaks that need to happen. But if someone wants a more contained thing where they’re able to stay within brand guidelines, they can. And I think there’s a lot to look forward to there. And one of the actually side experiments. I have going on right now. But it’s not working the way I want it to, but I want to just. Have like a proof of concept is. Like a block. Theme where you have different style variations but each style. Variation is basically the same set of tools. Or the same colors and whatnot, but depending upon the cell variation you use, one is called like novice one is called learner and one is called expert and as you switch between the style variations it changes how many tools are open or closed so it and it’s not something isn’t working. I’m doing something wrong but it’s just to have a proof of concept. You probably shouldn’t use style variations. For that, in truth. But it’s just kind of a thought experiment of like, imagine you install block theme and you get a prompt. That’s like, hey, how much control do you want that you could change later on? I think it could be a pretty neat way of thinking about the future.

As we go into 6.2, what new feature excites you the most?

What new feature? Because. I said the most. That’s a really good one. I probably would say the style book or the distraction Free Writing mode. The style book is if you’re using a block theme and you are in the site or you’re making changes to your site, you can basically look. That all of the elements of your site and see them as you’re basically making changes. So before in the previous experience with site or if you were trying to make changes to a block that wasn’t in the template. That you were. Looking at, you couldn’t necessarily know how those. Changes would impact things and. The cell book really closes that gap and provides. A really neat design system almost where you can see. You know, as the name suggests, it’s a style book. You can see. All the different aspects of your site in one place at once. As you’re editing. And I really think it’s a game changer for end users and theme authors alike. It also automatically works with third party plugins that add blocks to your site, so it’s also pretty neat in that sense. Distraction free writing mode I have to mention because I use it all the time. And it’s something that anyone using the block editor can enjoy, and it basically just. I know I’ve. Seen a lot of feedback over the years and I’ve had my own feedback around the writing experience where if you want just like all the visual noise to go away the block toolbar, the sidebar settings, all the inserters everywhere like you can basically use this distraction free mode and it’s just like a blank page. You don’t see any. You can use keyboard shortcuts, but you don’t see any visual anything. And then if you hover up above you. Can get the. Top toolbar back. And kind of go in and out of that mode. But I am obsessed with it. I solely use it whenever I’m writing. On my personal site and I think it’s a really neat thing for an everyday you. Know old school Blogger?

No, I I would agree with it. It’s probably the feature I’m most excited about going in this next point too is that the distraction free mode because it’s just easier to bring it up from right and it makes life 10 times easier as far as I’m concerned. So that’s a good one. We’re moving to to what we talked about. Leading to collaboration down the road, aren’t we? That. That’s exciting.

Yeah, we, we are gearing up there. I’m like there’s a post from Matthias called like Phase Two finale where he talks about phase two. Gutenberg is all this full sighting related stuff including blockings and all sorts of gradual adoption pathways. And talking about 6.2 and we’re put 6.3 wrapping that up and in between that starting on phase three which? I’m terribly excited about. I think there’s some really interesting explorations to happen. I think right now we’ll likely see a lot of technical underpinning work happening rather than anything visual to start because there’s a lot to do, like infrastructure side to get things in place, but I think. Even with the site editor, we’ll see benefits we’re, you know, having better revisions and having. More robust saving process like all that stuff ties into phase three.

And I would say, and truthfully, I think you’re going to have to be more careful what type of host you get moving forward because frankly some of these low cost hosts, sorry, low cost hosts will not have the resources to cut some of these changes are coming down the road. And I think some people are going to be. Talk that if they want to do things like. Collaboration or maybe distraction free writing or other things going on under the hood. They’re actually going to want to probably increase their hosting plans in a big way.

Yeah, especially for collaboration, I think you’re right on the money about that and that’s part of the problem to solve. And there is a performance team where we’ve started talking about like blocking performance and generally like helping with classic themes and and kind of making sure there’s parity there. But I think coming up, it’s on my mind to bring those folks in really early and make sure. You know all the different. Teams are involved in those discussions.

Yeah, I think it’s really important what else does coming in 6.2 that people should or should not be aware of.

Oh man, I I this is like a very robust thing to talk about. But there is a new experience of when you enter. The site editor. So if you’ve used a block theme and you’ve explored the site editor when you land back in there, rather than being dropped into your whatever is powering your homepage template, you’re actually going to be met with a dark. Camp like basically a dark sidebar frame where you can then in the sidebar scroll through your different templates and template parts and your primary navigation. And see basically the whole of your site before actually going in and editing things. And this also means with this new experience you can make changes to multiple different templates and then save all of that at once, which is pretty neat. But it’s a it’s a big overhaul and it’s an exciting step forward that really I think in the future will lay the groundwork for a lot of extensibility with other plugins. So like if you’re using like WooCommerce or something, I could imagine a world in which WooCommerce like mimics this experience where you’re drilling down into specific pieces, but also able to kind of see the whole. Your site, so that’s a big one. Another one is the navigation block has an additional way of editing menus and it’s baked into the sidebar as well. And so you can edit directly in the canvas as you’re used to using the navigation block, but there’s also just this new experience which has gotten really good feedback from the FCC outreach program. As well as like various other folks who have hugged to test it. And so I’m very excited about that. So I think it helps kind of like marry the old experience with the new block parade. Time and provide like a pretty easy to use flow and that’s the navigation block has been saying. We’ve gotten a lot of feedback on. Over the years.

It’s one of my favorite ones so.

And of course there’s like, I know a lot of folks are kind of beating the door down about like mega menu stuff, but there’s not a lot. To report on there. Related though, to like more complex blocks there there is like also a very welcome change with better organization with the block settings thanks to some split controls. So basically before when you open up, you know using a block needs like a block and you’d open up the sidebar settings, you would be met with basically. All of the settings. Shoved into just the entire sidebar, and it was kind of hard to see how they might impact the block in which way. And so now there’s like some really nice organization and split tab. So there’s an appearance tab and there’s a settings tab or styles and setting. So you can get a better. Sense of what you actually want to do to. The block without having. To scroll and read each setting. So I’m really excited about that and for block theme authors or for plug-in authors you can actually like. Make sure your options that you want to have show up show up in the right place based on how you register them.

That’s interesting.

The final. Yeah, it is a really interesting and to me this is part of why I said like this release both sets the stage for the present and for the future because this is part of what as we add more and more tools, we have to think about scaling the experience and this like split control I think. Is is part of that future? There’s also a ton of pattern improvements. There’s header and footer patterns baked into things. The pattern categories have been revamped, the inserter pattern experience has been redesigned to make it a bit easier to see and preview, you know. Again, this is like you think about a growing number of patterns. How do you scale the interface so it’s easier? To use and that’s another area in which like that design thought has gone into. And then the last thing I’ll mention. Which is going to be a ton of stuff. There’s just a bunch of style improvements in features, so the style book I mentioned, there’s also like a neat inline preview when you’re editing styles in the site editor, you can style an individual block and then apply it to all instances of the blocks. You can just apply it globally, which. Is really cool, so if you’re.

Love that.

I love. It’s such a time saver and like being able to to do that with a click of a button I think is awesome. And then a long time thing is custom CSS. So we typically want to be filling the gaps with design tools to make sure folks aren’t having to rely on custom CSS and so WordPress can handle more things. For those gaps where they do still exist, there is a custom CSS both on a per block basis and globally for your site baked into the site editor now, which has been a long standing thing folks have wanted. And then there’s also just copy paste block styles, which is pretty nifty and easy, and you can use that at any time. Using blocks so. That’s kind of what I would call like the Super high level things. There’s for any super nerds. There’s some really neat performance improvements with theme JSON that sees a pretty big increase in the performance of of these themes, so I think. It’s like I’m looking at this. Yeah, it’s a 23% performance gain for themes with theme JSON and 9% for themes without theme JSON. Yeah, it’s huge.

That’s a big deal. 23% is old, is huge. So there were three spots I wanted to go down if I can.

Yeah, that’s awesome.

When I talked to the developers or I listen to designers, or I think about what I’d like, there’s kind of three areas of big concern out there. You mind if I go down that Rd. So the first one. Is the NAG notices the plugins put out. I have to go there the there’s a lot of and I understand plugin authors have to make money but I don’t think bombarding the WordPress dashboard would nag notices is necessarily the best approach. And I think a lot of these guys think that’s better than being involved in the community. Are we doing anything that kind of shore that up a little bit and clean that up?


Yeah, there is like some really interesting, I think it’s called WP notify that I want to say Jonathan Bosinger, hey, this is like years ago. I’m like trying to remember because. It was. To date, when I had this conversation, it was like beginning of the pandemic. But this is like one of the things that I know has been. Discussed and I I totally agree. I think it degrades the experience. I have definitely had that issue where I’m opening up WordPress site and I’m like Oh dear Lord, like how many things are asking for my attention and it’s it just feels messy and it’s not unified. I think there’s some really interesting stuff done around. I think it’s like the. Feature notifications channel that relates to this if I’m not mistaken. I also think alongside like wider projects like that a lot of thought has been put into for years now. I think part of what’s being done with components in the WordPress projects and these kind of like larger interface changes could in theory set some standard for it. So like if you know you’re building a new plugin and you want to use last and greatest, imagine you have a component you could use to notify. Folks of stuff or have like an admin notice. And then imagine if you use that it then works nicely with. You know all the. All the rest of the plugins. That are also using that because yeah, we do. Want to get away from the? But for lack of a word like hijacking that ends up happening and it’s almost like who can have the biggest banner message at the top of this thing, and I find it to be like pretty frustrating because you you kind of want an experience where people are engaging with your stuff when they want to, not because they have to, where they accidentally click on it like I’d be. Very curious to know how that’s actually working for folks.

And then a second interesting. Discussion I’ve heard come up a lot in my circles lately. Is the admin dashboard itself what we’re talking about? UI changes is looking so 15 years ago and it needs a refresh. Any thoughts on that one that you can add?

Yeah, I totally agree. There’s actually. This is part of what? Makes you I can. Find that pose. This is like loosely discussed in some of the phase two finale, because I totally agree, I think there’s a lot that needs to be done to kind of bring in an updated design across these things. I think Yost recently had.

That’s where I came out of was Jose redesign and people said if Yost and they did a very good job with the redesign, to be honest with you said if Yost can do it, why aren’t we doing it in core and just being? Done with it.

And I think that that is in the future that is definitely, I think the plan. I know that Matthias also has a great post. I think it’s like reimagining the app admin or something like that off to find these links because I love to drop links. But there’s a really interesting experience of kind. Of what I was describing. It’s like if you’re using imagine like an. If you export 6.2 at all but the new experience of entering the site editor, the project name for that is basically called browse mode and that interface and experience could be applied like other plugins could use it. It also could in theory replace WP admin so. There are some really interesting designs floating around in figma files, imagining that as. You know the future of WordPress where it’s like if you were entering the experience rather than like entering the app and then entering the site editor imagining that browse mode. Dark Gray, kind of like sidebar where you’re drilling into content, imagining that being the main way you interact with the site and having plugins basically like plug into that interface, which I think would be really cool. I think it’s going to be tricky and I I agree that this the rest of it needs to be updated. This is where I have to. To say like contributions welcome because it’s definitely a ton of.

And then while we’re on the contributions welcome scene. Will go to my favorite pet peeve and many others I’m sure is the media library, and I hate to go down that road too, but the media library. I think part of the problem is and I don’t know if you and I have talked about this far, it’s not really quote a sexy project to work on. So I think the media Library’s kind of been neglected for a long, long time and needs a it needs a refresh. Is there any plans to do anything with the media one?

Yeah, I’m so glad you brought this up because the outreach program actually did like what I call like expirations driven calls for testing. So it’s basically like exploring something more like far off and in the future, rather than a call for testing and something more tangible. And and today. Today is like WordPress. And so I did an expiration, I think it. Was like this time. Last year on Media and part of. Why we did it is because. As we you know, open verse is now part of the WordPress project. There’s also the WordPress photo directory like there are a number of media related things building up and bubbling up within the WordPress project and so I totally agree. I dabble with photography and I love images and.

Me too.

I use a lot of them, so yeah, like so finding like the organization of the photos is like has always been madding to me. And so I totally agree. I think we’ll see something shift as like integration with. The WordPress photo directory and open verse, which is actually one of the things to come in 6.2 is in the inserter. You’ll be able to and there’ll be a media tab where you can actually search for images from open verse, and you can obviously disable that as well, but I think that will kind of naturally lead to more work being done to better organize. Photos and one of the things that came up in the all things media exploration was like imagining a world where, you know you’re adding a photo to your site and you could also like check a box and add it to open verse and add it or the workforce photo directory. Like there’s a lot. Of really interesting ways in which. The two could work in tandem and I think as you know, open versus organizing so much content. What can we learn from how open versus doing it and bringing those insights into the media library to have better organization. So I think there’s a nice like handshake that could possibly happen in the future.

Yeah, that would be nice. I think it’s, I think it’s coming, it’s just a case. There’s so much on the plate for automatic it’s just getting us there, right, and prioritizing what needs to be done now what needs to be done later. And I really think like from my standpoint, anybody up at automatic is listening to the feedback.


I know you do. I know people like burgett know, I know Matthias certainly listens to feedback, so. I think the perception that and I know it’s some of it out there and I always like to break it down and says people aren’t. Testing do us a favor, folks. If you’re having problems, please go open up a ticket and do this the right way. Like, don’t just. Jump on social and say you’re unhappy. Actually, go open up a ticket if you’re having problems, open a ticket. There’s a number of people out there who would gladly help you open it. Do us a favor and let’s kind of control. The stream of where things are going right and.

Yeah, it’s super helpful. And I will say like, you know, if you can’t get it to the right place like feedback is better than no feedback. I know some people like I often tell people. Like just blog about it. Like if you’re in the WordPress space, you probably have a WordPress site. Just write a post and like tag me in it or drop it to me or e-mail like if that’s what. You can do. That’s what you can do. And I actually have. A list of three different posts I need. To go through this week or I don’t need to, I want to. It’s like people taking the time to write. Feedback and I see it as part of my job to to seek that stuff out. So just as much as like you’re trying to share feedback. Like there’s also a number of us who are seeking it out, but it does make it wildly easier if people open issues directly and don’t worry about if it’s a duplicate issue like there are folks, there is a triage team that helps. You know, manage that.

And I would say word press is in good hands with people like Anne, who’s passionate about WordPress. Looking after her for us. So I think you amongst many of your colleagues put us all in good hands. And I should tell you that’s really appreciated from the community.

I appreciate you saying that it’s it’s a honor and privilege and it’s a responsibility I take really seriously. So it’s WordPress has definitely changed my life and I just. Want to keep helping it? Help others you know.

Mine too. I I often tell the story. When I started my digital agency 14 years ago and came out of the healthcare sector, I started doing websites and WordPress. I do other many other things. Now, but that’s kind of what laid the foundation for my agency. So it’s changed mine as well. And this is always such a treat to get to you for 1/2 hour. Or an hour. And and chat WordPress as somebody wants to get a hold of you have some questions. What’s the best way?

https://nomad.blog/ is my website and there’s a contact form and I truly welcome. Feedback and I’m typically pretty responsive unless if you catch me the week before the 6.2 release might not be as responsive, but I love. Hearing from folks. And I really very much from someone who was taught word press and someone who knows what it’s like to be a beginner. So if you’re nervous about reaching out like I am, I am just a person. I would love to hear from you and I’d love to help kind of get you connected to the right places. I’m also at Annezazu on the make. Slack install, so you’re welcome to just DM me there. I’m not on social media, I’m on LinkedIn if that counts, but I’m off of all social media right now. Sometimes I’m on Instagram, but those are the easiest ways to get me.

And thanks so much for your time and good luck with the release and have a wonderful day.

Thank you and thank you. For having me.

Always a pleasure.


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