Episode 339: The Open Source Community With Courtney Robertson

Show Summary

Rob Cairns talks to Courtney Robertson about the open-source community and the open-source summit.

Show Highlights:

  1. Why Open-Source?
  2. What is the Open-Source summit?
  3. Why collaboration matters.

Show Notes

Hey Everybody, Rob Cairns here, I’m here with my good friend Courtney Robertson of GoDaddy Pro. How are you, Courtney?

I am great today Rob, and you know this is our regular time to hang out, but it’s extra special that we get to do it episode together final.

Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s funny. We’ve been kind of Co managing the Lincoln Group for almost, I guess for about a year and a half, aren’t we give or take and.

We are. Yeah, so far it’s up to 10,200 plus people and it’s just proving to be a great source of lots of networking inside of LinkedIn.

So little shameless plug. If you want to hang out with Courtney and I come to. That sounds, I’ll. Go that right in the off the top. Of the show because it is my show kind. Of I think. So what I wanted to talk about today. As you were just at an open source summit in Vancouver, Canada, you had to come all the way to Canada for that, which is absolutely amazing. And I thought we talked about that. First of all, how was your experience with Vancouver?

It was amazing. So to be clear, I was inches from Canada. Maybe I was in Canadian waters, even right before this coming from where? Camp Buffalo. And then I took off. To go to Vancouver. I never made it to Canada before that so. Perhaps while I was doing the boat tour of the Niagara Falls, I might have been in Canadian waters, but I didn’t get off the boat so I didn’t have to show my passport. Finally got to Canada by going the way of Vancouver and had such an amazing time at this event. When I landed the first thing I did was get my body. Adjusted to the three hour time difference by staying up late and the next day I I took a WordPress friend, Jenny out to lunch and did some sightseeing in Vancouver, which was also amazing. The weather was just gorgeous. It was jeans and T-shirt weather.

Vancouver is one of my favorite cities in the country. I’ve been there a couple of times. For those who don’t know, I’m in Toronto, so that’s, you know, it’s a city I just love in the door. The weather’s a little different than here, they have two seasons in Vancouver, nice season and rainy season and it seems you got around all the rainy stuff, which is. So tell us a little bit about this summit you were at in the open source comma.

Yeah, so this. Was put on by the Linux Foundation and the Linux Foundation is a parent foundation to many different open source projects. So if an open source project is needing some form of governance or something like that, often they will turn to the Linux Foundation and this spans widely. It was open source. In North America, there is a version that is happening in Europe and one happening in Japan in the near. Future, the one that I attended, had many different tracks going on. So think about something that is at least double triple the size of where camp Europe US in terms. Of quantity of things happening, and they did have an online stream going on as well. And so first for for the information, we were at the Vancouver Expo area. So the the Convention Center, which overlooks the English Bay. So the views from the Convention Center, you’re right beside. The Olympic Torch, which looks like giant crystals growing out of the ground. They didn’t have it lit at all. Though I was there, but it looks like this giant. Crystal sculpture from when the last time the Winter Games were in Canada. And you have views of the seaplanes with their pontoon, like feet landing into the English Bay behind you and helicopters taking off. And all of these things and all these gorgeous. Restaurants with these views. And I’m supposed to be inside the. Convention Center? Well, it’s. Good that they have lots of glass. Windows so that. I could go out in the hall and take. A good look. At the English Bay and and see around at this so venue. Amazing the way that it was organized was just unbelievable. So they did name tags and below the name tags they had ribbons that were your areas of interest while you were at this thing. And so there were. I want to. Count Ohh my goodness over a dozen different tracks running at this thing. Some examples are cloud. Open container con emerging OS forum. The Diversity Empowerment summit. I went to some of their sessions. Meadow was there for open Metaverse summit. There was an open AI track. There was open JS World which is the JavaScript foundation. GoDaddy is part of the JavaScript. So I was joined by three of my coworkers. One of them is the board member for the JavaScript foundation, Daniel, and so I got to spend some time with coworkers there that I had not spent in person time with before. They’re in a very different part of my company, so that was pretty cool. All spoke on, which is another one that I spent some time in tracks on, and aspo is the open source program office. So inside of large companies you need a department that has eyes on what’s going on with open source and a company, not just what are we giving to our customers, but what are we using and not just the software, but potentially also. Down to little packages of bits of. Code right to be aware. That and also what do we have that is open source that the Community can come and use as a company and so GoDaddy does have some of that that is completely not related to WordPress things. And I know this audience might skew a little more towards WordPress, so keep in mind that there’s there was a lot going on for that. So I was excited about OSCON. They have things about supply chain. And sustainability and open source leadership summit. I did a lot of those, the one that’s going on in Japan, no shocker has a lot going on in the automotive industry and people might think, wow, that’s fascinating. What’s going on in open source and these other sectors? So I met with the person I did breakfast, the one. OK, there were tickets are about 600 because this is different than an average word camp kind of thing. The the This is a different vibe and you have folks from different corporations there that are oftentimes being decision makers inside of companies. And so you’re not dealing with somebody that is an end user. But you’re dealing perhaps with maybe a different audience and you want to know that the companies that you’re doing business with are really understanding how all of this comes down to the. End user so so. Open source Summit had a couple of different meals networking sessions that were totally free for attendees. One was intended for first time attendees, so I went to that. Another was for women and non binary folks. So I went to that one and then there was one specifically around diversity as well. And so at the newbies. I met a guy that was coming from the safety standards industry and they have specific protocols about what passes for he specifically works in the area of Transportation Safety in personal vehicles. So cars think about your seat belts, the airbags, all of that. The standards that must apply apply. Nationally, these are these are specific safety standards and if you get into aircraft carriers and things, they have very specific standards as well. So it was fascinating for me to see these different industries because I’m so in the web dev and hosting space. To think about. What are other industries doing that is related to open source and? What could we learn? From that and what? What have they figured out in their companies? How would a company that in the automotive industry figure out what they’re doing with open source? Fun things to kind of.

Yeah, it’s really it’s really. It’s really fascinating. And one of the things that people don’t realize, you know, you mentioned the summit was put on by the Linux Foundation. Linux servers drive a lot of what’s on the Internet and people don’t understand that, and they drive a lot. Big data, moving servers and big corporations. Having worked in an enterprise environment, it’s amazing the amount out there one one question one to ask was there any focus on and I have to ask it on security at the summit and the concerns about open source and security.

Oh, absolutely, yeah, there. There were specific areas. I mean, some of it was. Security focus tracks and then other areas. Were open. Gov con. So you can find security issues within some of the tracks, but it wouldn’t necessarily be labeled security as the main thing. But would the security topic be in there? It would some of the. Sessions that were very overtly. Critical software summit? Well, that sounds like something with security.

Yeah. What would be your? Number one take away from the summer that you took out so much there, I know.

Goodness yes. If I were to do a take away that was for me personally and maybe where I am in my career, it’s the value of knowing. Others I was coming with a very specific slant. I want to think about my WordPress hat and my GoDaddy employee. So I was attending sessions around that and I met a lot funny. A lot of great women in tech at this event and a few of them really stood out to me. The value of networking in those spaces, both for a what, my job? Is my career trajectory, but also the benefit of bringing that back, that learning back into WordPress itself. So I sat down with the Executive director of the JavaScript Foundation Open JS quite a few times actually while I was there and. And I I just had such a good chance to learn from her experiences over the years and to see how potentially WordPress itself, which is, I don’t know if we want to say up or downstream from JavaScript, but. We would be. Nowhere without it how we could form more strategic relationships between our communities and how that could impact. The themes, the plugins, etc. So that was I think amazing for me.

You just hit a word I really like. Strategic relationships. And the reason I kind of circle back to that is I think. Regardless of the summit you go to, whether it’s the open source summit, whether it’s a word camp, whether or I’m at a Google Cloud event in Toronto next Wednesday for for that. And somebody said to. Why are you going to? Google Cloud event and the words you just hit strategic relationships. It’s your chance to meet. Ohh it’s a chance to share a common interest. It’s a chance to learn from people and I think that is like the biggest value of going to some of these big summits, wouldn’t you agree?

Yeah, absolutely. Related other amazing relationships that I had I so on day day one, the day before day one, there is also events going on. So JavaScript Foundation had an event all day that day and I attended that in the morning half because in the afternoon. There was a group and I’m going to hold up for those that might be on the YouTube poker chip that says chaos on it. One of those again strategic relationships, Chaos Clan chaos in this case doesn’t mean. Chaotic it means community, health and analytics of open source software chaos. So at that event I was learning so much from some folks that were really skilled in assessing the health of an open source project, both from a code perspective as well as from. A contributor perspective, where are the human vulnerabilities such as we know in the word press space that the plug in repo has been woefully backed up backlogged because. We’ve relied on one person who’s done a fantastic job, but. Is due to. Retire from that role? Not from working, but from that particular role. And in the meantime, that means onboarding more people and trying to build out some tooling to automate some stuff. Well, that’s a human vulnerability area of the project. A lot resides in the WordPress industry on our plug-in ecosystem and. So learning from others about community health of various open source projects, and then thinking about how businesses can, if they are assessing whether or not to use a particular open source product within their organization, they might say we need to firm up some of these areas. There was a. Comic from XKCD. When the log 4 J news broke like a year ago or something about. There’s this one little person. Not little person, but one person that’s this little cog in this big machine. And without that person, things are going to fall. And so if you want to continue using this, you can. You don’t automatically say no because you find a weakness. You look at how do we firm that up and so Chaos Con was great from that perspective for me and it again. Strategic relationships. It’s understanding how to look at well, where do we even begin assessing how the metrics where, how would one do that and ohh wouldn’t you know that other open source projects? Wrap their heads around that same issue and have ideas about how they assess big projects. I mean Linux, the software most people are that are hosting websites often it’s running under managed hosting servers, but also if you’re using a C panel environment, it’s definitely running behind that.

Yeah, and no, no kidding. And and that’s where it kind of comes into play. Like people think of even Linux as. A desktop operating system and they forget about that whole server side of it, right? So it’s just I would, I would let you.

Yeah, think it’s more. Used in servers actually than in desktops, I would dare say.

That’s what I was gonna.

Go exactly, it’s just more used than without. When it’s we wouldn’t be powering as much of the Internet the way we are. And you know, we’d be ashamed if we don’t mention a famous guy by the name of Linus Torball, who actually founded Lennox from the Unix derivative. Like many, many years ago. You know, it’s quite it’s quite interesting from that perspective. I think what a lot of people don’t realize is open source software is used in a lot of places like for example electronic vehicles, a lot of their software is open source space.

NASA uses it. We saw a presentation from NASA about open source on Mars from the Mars Rover. The software that’s running on the rivers, but also the moon. A lot of the endeavors that’s studying the moon, a lot of the satellite technology is all open source. And they encourage folks to find their GitHub repo and take a dive through what’s in their NASA’s GitHub repo about the software that they’re using to power the things in space.

Was, is there any other real interesting uses of open source software you saw while you were? At the conference.

You know, it’s hard to beat space. It’s hard to beat space. Less interesting. I only found one counterpart to myself and.

Really hard to relax.

Yeah, I only found one counterpart to myself during the entire conference, and she doesn’t actively work in CMS world anymore. These days, CMS content management system that would be. Things like WordPress, Triple Joomla, etcetera. She came from the. Triple World was a core commit. Equivalence in the Drupal. Base worked Acquia, which is kind of like our version of automatic but different similar space and I only found one person that has that open source experience.

Yeah, so true.

Really, a lot of people that were users of WordPress, but none that were contributors and that was weird to me. I mean, I understand that this is a Linux Foundation event and many of the organizations there have their governance through the Linux Foundation so. I get that. But I wonder in the content management space. It wasn’t. It wasn’t exciting. It was. Curious borderline. Concerning how does the content management system learn about open source? Broadly, how do we take some some insights and how do we get back insights to other open source communities that have figured out some really big issues? Like if NASA is willing to run open source to get. Us to Mars. They might have. Figured a couple of things out that maybe we. Could figure out for. How web hosts handle opens for? Software. I don’t know. Ideas.

Yeah, I I would.

Agree with you now. Since then it like really well, incredibly and they’ve been using open source software. From what I’ve read forever to be honest. Like this is going back like 10 or 15 years. So if they do it and it’s kind of mission critical with nobody around, then everybody else. To do it so it’s it’s really interesting. I am. Would you was this a? Good event, just personally or a good event professionally or a bit. Of both, would you?

Say absolutely both. 100% I would say this is one of the events that I got the the rare opportunity of being there as an attendee and I soaked it in because often when you’re. In field marketing, you’re running the booth. You might be speaking, I think in Buffalo. I was doing all of that. I spoke a couple of sessions, ran the booth with Marcus, and took photos and so to just have the luxury of being an attendee is amazing, but I found so many. Folks that were. Of the same mindset because we all were in this open source conference, right? And so of the same mindset and. I had multiple. People indicate that they would love to start up a monthly sink and mentorship type of thing with me or inviting me to. Some working groups that are beyond the scope of anyone. Specific project but would be impacting a lot of governmental. Level decision making, I will say. And so it was amazing from that perspective to look at. That my experience and background in the open source content management space in particular was valuable and that they would love to hear insights from that. And I’ve shared some of the the learnings and the experiences that I’ve had with a few of my other WordPress counterparts and.

Now, is there something?

Very excited to go to. Some of those events in Europe soon too.


Is there something at the summit that you wish they had it covered that they didn’t? Because there was a lot.

That I wish.

That they covered that they that that they didn’t wow. You know, I hung out mostly in. The open source leadership. And the Osco areas, so also open source program office. I mean, I sat down at a table with. One of the directors at Amazon Web hosting at their web hosting division in open source, and I got to meet. Chris Debona from formerly of Google and some of the top folks at Google that are handling open source. I love those table experiences. They were asked the expert. Questions and networking type of events. I would have loved to have maybe more of a a working session I guess. I would say there are a lot of great. Networking opportunities. There were a lot of great session opportunities, but the idea of. The word press equivalent of the happiness bar we roll in. We’re like I got a problem. Who can help me with my problem? Some folks to. To maybe for those that are utterly. New to making an open source program. Office take us. Through an exercise perhaps, of let’s outline what we. Need to do to get started step. By step and I think some of that. Might have been really helpful. I mean. Topic wise though. You know, I feel like we might need some open source web dev things represented that are a little more upstream or down, whichever from the programming languages. Maybe I’d like to see that there, but you know everything I saw it was. It was good. It was so good. And got.

If you go again, I would.

To to the aquarium.

Are they requiring vancouvers? Phenomenal if you haven’t. Been it’s like. It’s it’s absolutely incredible. The aquarium in Vancouver is phenomenal and the aquarium here is phenomenal. So you know another road trip for you down the road.

Party, where they had a meal and appetizers and stuff, staggered throughout the aquarium. They provided bussing from the. Over to the aquarium. The one night. And there’s also another day where there was a a group of runners that did a 5K. There was another group that did a bus tour in the morning of the city before the events got going. It was an event that people were just. Well fed, well taken care of. You could tell that it costs more because there’s more involved.

Yeah, yeah. No, no question. Would you consider going to would like Japan be a designation for the open source summit if? You had that opportunity, would you?

I recommended it to my coworkers that are there so deciding factors for me, I get to go to a lot of work camps. I go to all of our international ones and I. Count myself fortunate. Before working at GoDaddy, I contributed to WordPress for 11 years in some capacity before. For being employed or sponsored, I never took a plane to go to our award camp before until I worked at GoDaddy. So I recognize there’s huge privilege in some of these areas that of what I am doing and that the event at opens our summit that it was aimed at folks that work in corporations for sure or that are part of the projects that are involved in it. So yeah, it would be a lot of fun to hop on a plane to some of these other destinations. The multiple mom with two littles and I have a couple of other international trips. I’m about to get on a plane to go to Athens, Greece. Oh my goodness. Here comes where camp Europe and I will be going to where Camp Asia again. And so with all of that in mind. You know the one in. North America was. Was amazing. If I were speaking at maybe one of the other ones, then that might be a consideration, but find your nearest continental one is my advice and and that does I think better for the. Environment than just touring for for fun.

Then there’s all this jet. Setting all over the place. You know, it’s funny. We talk about all these international conferences. And I love conferences more than most people, and they’re a lot of work. You know that, especially when you’re manning a booth and or even speaking, having spoken at a number of business conferences over the years. And this year my schedule doesn’t align for any of them and.

I know you couldn’t drink. Me in Buffalo with like a. What a one hour car ride or something, but no.

Hour, hour and a half. We we were away and that was the Sunday was Ontario Police Memorial weekend, so that wasn’t happening. And you know and and my schedule, it’s funny because I looked at my schedule and it does not align right through September, so. It’s just like. OK. But but you get it because you have two.

Yeah, Rob, I have a couple. Of questions for you, knowing your back. Ground you brought up, you brought up security. Earlier and I happen to know that you worked in. The medical sector previously. It would be considered enterprise level, so your experience was in hospitals. Was that experience in hospitals related to software by chance?

It was related to servers, so the the work I did in hospitals was a combination couple of things.

Servers. OK Yep.

I did a lot of back end server work. At the time, I was also part of the client Services support team, so we were the first realm of call after hours.


If there was any problems, I was also part of major projects. For example, in our ER’s, we were one of the first hospitals in the Toronto area. To put pieces on carts right in the operating rooms for the docks to pull. Their results while they were doing surgery.

So you worked on systems that literally could be sustaining life is what you’re telling me.

Ohh no no, no question, no question and.

So that was that is an entire area of open source that is fascinating and not just open source, but also. There are the one. Of the there are a couple of things that I learned that I did not know going into this event. First, I learned about these. Scorecards that will assess the health and metrics of open source software. Some of the things that are used in medical institutions and medical facilities can be open source and or open standards. Standards would apply to hardware sources applying to the code. They’re intertwined a lot of times, but with that type of thing in. Mind I I heard a term that I almost didn’t make it home with S bomb and I I heard this term S bomb and I’m like what’s that? So I went to Google and I looked and I spelled S bomb like I thought it would be spelled. But no, that’s not how they spell it. They don’t have. B at the end. So I was worried about my. Flight tickets home but all was good. Yes, I didn’t care that I searched for. Baum and Google before that. And I got through. But software bill of Materials S BOM software bill. Materials organizations have these documents of some form, and they can be in many different forms and it’s it can also. Work with protocols. So if a language has a code conflicts upstream, downstream, whatever, if there are security vulnerabilities, an organization would absolutely know need to know how that might impact what they’re doing. Whether that is a medical institution keeping people alive or a car manufacturer that also might be keeping people alive with their standards. So I found. That whole area fascinating and I thought ohh, that’s probably an. Area that, that Rob would. Probably be interested in was this this document, this source of what’s everything in the stack.

Yeah, always, always are. And what people don’t understand in the healthcare environments, typically the way it works is you’ll have like a biomedical department that will look after all the medical devices. So they’ll look after things like the scanning machines, the, the IV machines, that kind of stuff, and then you’ll have the IT department that looks after the IT side of things. And what we see is a lot of those biomedical devices are based on open source software. Interesting enough or? Are posh outdated versions of certain versions of Windows, which we shall not talk about.

You mean we still have Windows 90? 5 running around.

Now they’re probably is on a couple medical devices. Believe it or not.

They wouldn’t be on the Internet, I think. I think 98 is when the Internet came to windows.

Yeah, no, the I would tell you, we were doing intense stacks with Windows 95 with code protocols to get the money Internet. So they were, it was already there.

There were other ways of doing it. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it’s, it’s.

Fascinating to think about these other areas of open source that we probably all interface with Bailey and are unaware that we’re that we’re dealing with. And so it was fun to learn about other types of open source governance, other ways of funding. Open source so the people that work on this. What you’ll see a lot of times in the medical healthcare sector is a lot more funding towards those specific initiatives in the Open JS track where I was hanging out a bit with as far as socializing, you know, I met some folks that are Google, Netflix was there. Of course the players. To use a lot of. There are a couple of other companies like that that were present in the room for sure at these type of conferences, but it matters who shows up to events like this and the the IT matters what networking they get out of it as well I think.

Yeah, it’s it. Sure does. The thing. I’ll tell you too. We were talking about the corporate side a little bit. A lot of firewalls are based on Linux servers too, so you gotta keep that in mind. So a lot of companies that are in big enterprise systems, their firewalls are all open source, managed and people don’t understand that as well. So that’s a really interesting look.

Yeah, I there. I mentioned that I shared about this event with a few other word pressers. I don’t know if if you have had a chance yet or any of your listeners have had a chance to look at playground.wordpress.net, yes, it’s really a.net address, but it spins up this virtual instance of WordPress. In your browser without having to download it locally and all these things. And it runs using web assembly technology or sometimes in the industry you might hear it as some. What a weird name, but web assembly and there was an entire track of things that were related to web assembly going on. So I made sure to share that with some of the word pressers that are working on the playground area. And then I I spoke with my friend Hari, who is in the WordPress community team about the open source leadership summit and the offer con in some of those areas. And so I think Hari is also checking out opens for summit for Europe or. I don’t know if there’s if the Japan one has that track running. It’s hard to sell Harris based out of India. So either of those might be good destinations for them depending on. Where it’s located.

That’s a really cool suggestion, and people should check that out, cause that’s probably well worth looking at any any, any more toys like we us people in open source need more toys to play with on their desk.

Ohh boys.

So was there any discussion?

Say that last part again, please any discussion about.

Was there any? Was there any AI and? Open source at the conference. I have to go there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there, there was a whole track dedicated to AI, Open AI and data forum was there. And it looks like within that they had things that were about data, data OPS, legal concerns and AIML OPS machine and deep learning, natural language processing. There’s there’s tracks within tracks. At this event and so yes, there was that. As far as. A little bit about. A I came up not a whole lot during one of the keynotes each morning we had basically 3 keynotes. One was from somebody within the Linux Foundation, another was a speaker, and a third one often was somebody that was part of the sponsors of the event and whatever that sponsor company is doing with open source in their company. And so I vaguely remember Cory Doctor’s talk having a little bit about AI in it, but his slant was also. More about social networks and about how we should own our content, own our own voice and syndicate to that effect, and also that we need more open protocols in, if you remember at the height of Web 2.0 coming out, which was all of these like social bookmarking tools, social networking. Platform, social, video, social, social, social. Everything used to talk to each other. Then we started getting these walled gardens. And then we kind of came back around and now we’re seeing AI writing this. Stuff for us and. Was reading it. So Corey had some really, really good points. His talk was very engaging. The room was packed that day. A toy that I I got the day that Corey gave his talk. I’m opening it now. Thank you, Google. Google gave us some some actual toys flag not AI related. Not not specific to Corey stuff, but. Security related, which is one of the things Rob is known for and it’s kind of like a Yubikey. It is instead of a Yubikey, it is another device or protocol, but it’s similar in. Purpose to it. Tighten security key and it is so I held it up for those that are listening and it is a USB C powered device that you plug into your laptop and it has a little circle imprint on it. Where you put. Your finger and you set up your. It’s kind of like. Your two factor authentication, but instead it’s going. To ask for you to touch the device or squeeze the device. Uber keys are one form of that. There are others out there like this one from Google tightened security key and so. Yeah, there was that going on. I didn’t hear a lot about AI in the in the tracks that I was in in particular. But I did hear a lot of ideas around AI and some of those keynotes, like Corey mentioned briefly.

Yeah, that’s just interesting. You can’t get away from AI right now. It’s kind of everywhere. So I I really think that security key is kind of cool. The only thing I would caution, and I always say this with security, is if you were afraid of being forced to open your device. Don’t use face ID or a fingerprint or something. You have to squeeze because you know legally you can be compelled to open that device, whereas if you use a passcode, you don’t necessarily have to turn it over. So if that’s a concern for you, don’t. Do it. That’s all I would say.

But then when you’re. Dealing with corporations, corporations oftentimes require you. To have the the key thing. For various devices.

I I actually use, I actually use an Uber key and I have for years because of that, that whole issue and it gets me out of the whole password tobacco authentication problem that has been running around forever. So Courtney this conversation. It’s been amazing, as always. I appreciate you more than you know. If somebody wants to talk open source WordPress. Devil how to submit a WordPress ticket. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll say if you can’t submit bug, my friend Courtney or any of the other devs that any of the other hosting companies so glad they help you, then they’ll hate me every time I say that, but that’s OK.

No, we don’t. That’s that’s. Kind of. Our job. If we’re a developer, advocate or developer, relations and we’re press, our job is if it is. For most of. Us our job is tied more towards the WordPress open source project. I might also be able to escalate some good. Any concerns for you? You can find me on all the social networks. The easiest way to figure out based on whichever network you prefer to find me on is Courtney or Dev at the bottom of my website. I’ve got links to everything, including my blue sky profile.

And we were talking about that before. So if you got a boost guy profile, go join Courtney there. Say hello. She’d be glad to share with you anything about open source. I’m sure. Because she’s a big she’s a big proponent of it, Courtney.


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