Episode 200: Talking About WooCommerce

Show Summary

Wow where time has gone. In this special episode 200, I sit down with Bob Dunn (Bobwp) and we talk about all things WooCommerce.

Show Hightlights:

  1. Episode 200 – All I can say is wow!
  2. What is going on with WooCommerce.
  3. Bob Dunn’s Podcast journey.
  4. Trends in WooCommerce

Show Notes

Hey everybody, Rob Cairns here. Today I’m working on a special Episode 200 and my guest is Bob Dunn of Bob WP and Do the Woo Fame.

How are you today, Bob?

Hey, I’m doing good and actually I’m it’s. It’s a pleasure being here and it’s an honored #200 hey, I feel very special.

All you are like we we’ve talked.

Uh, many times over the years and we’ve had a long time friendship, and I think I’ve told you one of the biggest reasons I got into podcasting with long time ago was your inspiration.

So I have to thank you for that.

So well, I’m hopefully it.

You know it didn’t inspire you in the wrong direction.

No, I don’t.

I don’t think so.

We’re both still here, so let’s kind of I was going to ask you and I don’t think I’ve ever asked you, but.

I will why?

Did you get into podcasting originally?

You know, I think it was and I’m gonna kind of blame Matt Maderos in a way because back in 2014. Oh no, I won’t blame him. I will blame two of my colleagues in 2009. Actually, somebody tried to.

Poked me into it because and this was right after I got into WordPress they just were saying, hey, you’ve got the boys for it and you’ve got the marketing experience.

All this so that was, you know, kind of.

I don’t know, it was kind of between maybe a couple of the high rise of podcasting.

But anyway, I said OK, I’m gonna Mull on it and it took me about five years of mulling on it.

And then I, I remember Matt Mederos kind of was around that time.

He was doing his, you know, Matt report and he was poking at me.

Hey Bob, you gotta do a podcast and and finally I gave in and did that did a podcast for a year called WP.

Breakdown and it was such a piece of dumb stuff.

It was just it was interesting. I would basically just do these little 1015 minute.

They were almost like.

Tutorial type things you know.

I was kind of regurgitating what I was writing on a podcast, but I thought, well, I’ll do this.

And I did.

A year and after a while I just thought.

Man, you know, is this really?

Is anybody you know?

I mean, I had a few listeners and stuff but I I just didn’t.

Feel real confident with it and I called it WordPress breakdown because I was thinking I was breaking down WordPress, but then I thought, ironically, you know somebody having a breakdown over.

WordPress, maybe they’d listen to it.

So I was trying to add a little bit of humor in there, but yeah, so I.

So after a year or actually maybe 14 months, I dropped that one and then just said, OK, I’m not going to podcast again until I’m enlightened with an idea that just I go.

Whoa, this is the thing to do.

So then I waited.

Again, for about two years before I started up again.

Yeah, it’s a.

It’s an amazing journey and now you podcast all about woo commerce.

Pretty well you’ve found your spot in your niche, right?

Right, right?

So yeah.

And and the nice thing is, over time organically I have.

I’m a lot more into the production side of things and I’m, you know, I’m on them on it occasionally, but I have a lot of great Co hosts at carry the shows and that has brought more voices to it, which I love.

Now it’s been quite a journey and it’s probably.

I don’t know.

If it’s the only Woo Commerce podcast out there, but it’s certainly the Premier Woo Commerce podcast out there.

And as you’ve talked about over the years, it’s not really a news podcast per say, like it’s not kind of in competition with WP MINADOR WP Mainline 2 people.

That are both friends of ours.

You’re kind of more getting an in depth interview than actually concurrent news, correct?

Right, and it’s more of a mix of.

Uh, learning it’s like guys learning about and from other builders so you know you’re learning from other people that are doing what you’re doing or what you’re trying to do as far as building products or sites you know around woo commerce.

So it’s yeah, it’s just more highlighting and elevating the people in this space.

Versus news, you know?

I don’t.

I don’t want to be a news site.

There’s plenty of great news sites out there that do in their jobs, so you know, it’s sometimes intertwined.

News in a sense, but it’s not based around news.

No, no question. Now we’re you know, at the time of this record was sort of into 2022 and we’ve talked a lot the last couple weeks and I thought I’d ask you. What were some of the big highlights for woo commerce in the Woo commerce space in 2021?

Oh boy, you know that’s a good question because.

I, I think the two things that stick out to me are, you know, I think the boost with woo commerce itself, the boost with their payments, blue payments.

I think they really you know.

Put a fire under that to get that out there more and get it more geographically covered and you know so that like for woo itself.

I think that was it I I think it was kind of the year of maybe.

Maybe this is wrong and some people would argue with me, but the euro.

Check out, you know, it seems like there was a lot of check out and it’s just not during that year.

It might have been a bit prior to that year or two, but a lot of.

Plugins sass product.

6 coming out around.

Check out.

I think it’s such a, you know it’s a it’s a hard spot and it’s a spot that everybody wants to get down to an art for their customers.

And I think that yeah, I think that I just saw a lot of a lot of the people that were reaching out to me were.

Or that and then actually a third thing.

Briefly, say I think it was a growth because of COVID, and then that kind of even though maybe leveled out a little bit more in 2021. I think it’s still really growing and in turn that brought a lot more people externally.

From WordPress and WooCommerce into the space and you know it piqued their interest a bit more and they thought, hey, I gotta gotta get in on this, Wukong.

We’re seeing, yeah, I would agree.

I think the two things you touched on that really resonated to check out.

And the reason I think that’s been such a hotbed is one of the complaints of purchasers who ecommerce stores checkout.

Process is we all grumble?

Why does it take me?

10 steps?

Why is it so difficult?

For the end user or the purchaser, why does it take me 10 minutes to check out?

I mean, so streamlining that process is really good and I agree with you.

Know things about woo increasing with the pandemic going on I think.

And I’ve been calling this for probably 10 years now.

I’ve been saying time and time again.

Ecommerce is the future, while the future is now, yeah.

And I think Amazon Point and check why does everybody go to Amazon?

Because it’s easy.

And I think where we’re seeing it with even small businesses now they’re starting to realize if they’re not selling online, they’ve got a problem.

Yeah, exactly.

And it’s a big issue and I don’t think the trends are going to change after the pandemic.

I think you know it’s so easy to sell online, so let’s touch on something that I’ve got a a big bone to peeve and it’s kind of companies that.

Either charge separate for shipping or just build the shipping charge into the cost of the item.

If you were running a Worcester and you’re not, which way would you go?

Boy, you know that’s a that’s an interesting one because I know personally and maybe it’s not because I’m cheap, but you know that no shipping free shipping, you know, and I compare prices to I say OK is this product you know?

Well, how can I get it for over there and sometimes I can see the difference.

Like in Amazon, you know when you’re on prime?

Yeah it, you know, maybe it’s still a good price, but it seems like it’s been bumped up because everything is free shipping on prime.

I you know, if I had to do it.

I would probably you know, and I’m.

Not probably the best.

Person to give advice on this, but I would.

I would offer free to a point and then say this is what shipping costs for.

There’s you, you know it right there, you know there’s no hidden surprises, whether that’s some kind of flash shipping.

I’m not sure.

You know, I don’t know the logistics and the costs and everything, but I I think I would entice have some enticement where OK.

You know?

At this point, yeah, there’s no shipping, and I’m not going to worry about making up for a lot of it with my products, but there’s going to be a a point, and whether that’s you know, free shipping after this amount of, uh, spend or whatever or certain items, again, it’s you know all over the board I I don’t.

You know it’s.

I guess putting it you know in there is in there but you kind of get a sense comparing prices if you that kind of a person that it is in there.

So it’s like.

What’s the point?

You know.

Just be.

Be honest with it.

Just tell me, hey, this is what it costs to.

Ship, and if it’s worth it to me, I will pay the shipping.

Yeah, I know I know with me I I actually sit down and say OK, what’s the cost of the item?

How many items am I buying?

What’s my shipping cost?

And then I, you know, if I’m ordering two items, I kind of divide the shipping cost by two and then I say OK, so if it’s $20 it costs me $10 to ship it.

I’m ordering two items as $25 and then I kind of move on and say OK. And what is everybody else selling it for? By time I pay the shipping there?

And I do.

I do that price comparison like I’m awful that.

Right, yeah, I agree and this side.

Uhm, at the time it’s record 59 is going to come out by the time it’s released. 59 will have been out what?

Do you see any big changes with Woo after 5-9 or WordPress or 6.0 comes out? Or do you just see it kind of trucking ahead?

You know, just from talking to some of the people at woocommerce.com and stuff. I think they’re just going to, you know they’re going to. They’re going to find ways to.

Put their arms around full site editing and blocks more and more.

I think it’s all going to, you know it’s going to happen.

I don’t know when it’s going to happen, what exactly it’s gonna look like.

But I just I know when we were talking with Paul, the CEO there he said that yes, they’re embracing full site editing.

And yeah, they they, they’re gonna.

They’re paying attention to this stuff and they’re going to find the best ways that we can, you know, be part of that and it’s it’s.

I I also think it’s a it’s not a quick process either.

You know a lot of their stuff has to be done.

In baby steps, because there’s just too much at risk to just, you know, start throwing stuff together so so they need to, you know, put stuff out a bit by bit and test and and not just say hey, we’re suddenly this you know.

We’re all full site editing and blocks.

Welcome to our world, so I think it’s it’s a slow process.

You know?

I think it’s inevitable that it’s going to happen is just.

I’m not sure when we’ll see it and what it will look like.

Yeah, I I’m not sure either. I mean, I’m as you know and most of my listeners know I’m already all in with blocks, so I have successfully taken a website that was was theme and page builder based and has gone to 100% theme and box.

Based, I’m all in with Cadence, I have been.

For awhile, but I’m not so sure even cadence.

The last I’ve read is not fully FC aware it will be, but they’ve actually recommended in some blog posts.

Maybe leave the FC stuff full site editing turned off for now until things stabilize a little bit.

Because I think people are gonna rush to 59.

Fine and personally I think 59 is a feature release, not a security release, so I think we need to take our time with that.

Really, yeah.

One just a little bit.

Yeah, I agree it’s yeah it’s gonna be yeah everybody gonna have to find their way.

Into it and you know, I, I sympathize with all builders that you know when these things happen.

I mean, they’ve got to figure out what’s best for them.

What’s best for their customers and how they proceed?

Need you know to into the next phase or whatever?

Or like you said you know, is it OK we’re we’re going to get this all worked out, but don’t everybody jump the.

Gun at once.

Yeah, and I think one of the best resources is learn.wordpress.org right now, the.

The the learning team at.

At Word, Press is doing an amazing job.

I know one of my colleagues, Courtney Robertson on that team and this is the first time that they’ve ever gotten a learning plan together before a release.

So this is like really a big deal and I think anybody wants to learn a bit.

To jump on over to that site and try and learn a little bit, spend some time in the forums.

Spend some time reading and kind of figure out where this is gonna go, because I I think it’s gonna be.

An interesting ride from a wood standpoint and even from just a regular word press standpoint.

I mean, I think the the block editor is an easier way to post blog posts to be quite frank, it’s not difficult.

I think reusable box is a great way to to reuse stuff.

I’ve got multiple reusable blocks.

Running around on my site and the advantage of that is when you drop a block then it just picks up the same content so that that’s really useful and I think it’s an exciting time to be a build.

Yeah it is and I and as far as resources too.

I think that and for those that are listening and haven’t checked it out on slack on the WordPress, the making WordPress slack, they have a uh, have a I actually follow it although.

I don’t understand.

Probably 90% of the stuff they’re talking about, but it’s a FC outreach.

Experiment channel on that and if you want to stay on top of things and see what people are thinking about and what isn’t working and what’s working and stuff.

And this.

I mean I know it.

You know it’s a time suck but also.

I’m amazed, I.

I don’t think you really understand what is going on in core until you sit in one of these slack channels and get in on a chat or just kind of watch it because it’s just, it’s it’s phenomenal.

It’s just like.

Wow, I I just think you know these people are constantly.

Stuff is going on and it’s it amazes me and then it, you know, it basically ends up enough rotation of a.

Release and it’s.

Like wow, you know all this lead up to that and here we

Are you know it’s funny?

You mentioned the word press core slack channels and I managed to avoid slack for the longest time I stayed away.

I avoided it because the way I looked at it, honestly, it was just another way of a Facebook group or Facebook chat and IRC channel.

Whatever you want to choose.

And then somebody said to me and I think it was Jeff Chandler. Actually we were talking one day and he reminded me that the WordPress org stuff is only on slack and it was like OK, so I joined for flatwordpress.org. I’m in the post status Slack channel and the last I worked this morning I had.

18 Slack channels going on so.

Choose, choose your voice and.

Yeah exactly, maybe you got on slack because you knew that was the only way you can reach me pretty quickly.

So you know that’s a.

That that works too.

That’s the best way, P.

No words to now.

No, that’s interesting.

Well, we’re talking about communication.

I’m gonna have some fun with this one.

You made a decision six months ago, at least, to get rid of the what I call the Facebook Monster and Hurt your podcast in any way box or.

You know that’s a good question, ’cause sometimes I I think about that a little bit.

I think you know I’ll, I’ll think of something and I’ll think well should I have left Facebook because of this?

Yeah, I you know I never really.

Got a real active.

Audience on any of my pages I created on Facebook and that was partly my fault because I just couldn’t spend my time there.

But just yeah, I just you know it just didn’t work and I I I belong to groups and stuff on there and and that again was just, you know, I was always just like oh why am I even?

They’re reading all this and and sure you can pick up on a lot of stuff, and I think it’s still, you know it’s viable for a lot of people, but there was just too much of a mix of everything and for me.

It really was towards.

The end, I think more of a personal moral decision.

Then, uh.

A business decision, which maybe you know some people might say that you know I if I it would have been a little tougher if my business would be in, you know, like thousands and thousands of very active and stuff, I would have had a little bit more of a struggle.

But I was in the position to let my personal decision.

Say, you know, I think Facebook really.

Sucks and I don’t.

There’s garbage on it, you know.

I mean, that was it.

You know, every time I get.

On there all.

I’m thinking is there.

Yeah, and so yeah, I just I.

I just finally made the decision and you know, for me personally I don’t.

You know, I don’t wave it like I.

You know the I’m the greatest person in the world because I did it.

I did it because it worked for me and.

I just could not put up with it.

Anymore no, I I understand that.

And you know, I call it the Facebook monster for those who have listened.

No, I’m on a Facebook ranked error because I haven’t been able to post anything from my business domain on Facebook or Instagram for the last nine months, and counting, by the way.

So I made a decision.

Well, back.

In October, I actually shut my Instagram account down so I don’t even have one of those.

And I’m only on Facebook because I run a couple Facebook ads for a couple clients and I need access to the Facebook ad manager and one of the things I’ve been doing, and you know if people are unhappy with me, that’s fine.

I’ve been unsubscribing to all my Facebook groups.

With the exception of 10 of them right off the top, and I know my family’s already ticked off at me because they’re complaining that to go look at pictures they have to go somewhere else and I keep saying that’s nice, like.

I ’cause I haven’t posted anything personal on Facebook in months and it is so bad in order to post my podcast on Facebook, I actually have to post to Kosto’s page and not my website page if he can believe that.

Hmm yes.

So I’m I’m done.

Yeah, yeah, I can totally relate to all that.

I you know, my sister.

I would occasionally talk with her.

I could kind of see what she was, you know, talking about and stuff like that, but it was like and I know a lot of people are very tide to a family.

You know, they say I would quit everything except this is how I stay in touch with family.

And you know, I get it.

It’s just.

It’s just sad that it has almost a trap, but it’s was built where people have to rely on it and they don’t feel like there’s no escape from it.

Yeah, I I’ve.

Just kind of minimized what I have.

To do on there.

And that’s and that’s about it.

I mean, and I’ve kind of said OK, beyond these things I’m just not gonna do it.

Moving on a little bit at the time, it just record one of the big stories that’s kind of hit.

The Newswires isn’t so much a awul story, but more a web story.

Is Australia just banned Google Analytics?

Did they? I don’t know.

And yeah, it’s yeah they did, and it’s been kind of all over the place and I don’t know how much people know.

But Australia has been going after creators like Facebook and Google to pay for.

Our access to newspapers and publications for a long time they’ve been.

Shooting that and in a lot of respects, I think Australia is more militant than the European Economic Union.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

You know that’s interesting ’cause I did not know about that.

And wow, that’s that’s almost dumb.

Yeah, that kind of explodes a brain a bit because it’s interesting ’cause I’m I’m, I’ve pulled off from Google on a lot of stuff to myself and you know, apparently I’m not a country.

But but but yeah, wow, that I I I’m I’m kind of at a loss for words there, because that’s a.

That yeah, it seems like it.

Exactly what it means.

I mean what it?

How it affects people, so you can’t really if they ban Google Analytics, that means you can’t get any analytics from Australia.

Basically is that it?

Yeah, if you’re if you’re doing Google I know it.

It’s you’re not supposed to collect the data using Google Analytics, which forces you to go to another analytics platform.

So those are more press.

One of the options is.

What do you like it or not?

Is jetpack analytics right there?

There are some third party privacy based analytics out there?

I run one and that’s an option.

Like I, I think it all has to do with this whole quorum.

We’ve gone through with cookies and we know the mass apples gotten into.

With Safari and Apple Mail blocking receipts and blocking opens and blocking all kinds of things so you know, we’ve gotten into some of that already in North America, and I, I just think it’s going to go on and go on to be honest with it, yeah?

Yeah, that’s interesting because I I was just thinking and and how much do you value?

You know how, how?

How much do you need to know?

Australian analytics depending on your business you know and and do you.

Do you look for alternatives and it seems like even some of the alternatives.

In WordPress as I recall, it seems like I was using one of the analytics and you actually were.

It seemed like it was hooked up through Google somehow in a way, so that wouldn’t really help, but interesting wow, I did not know that.

Yeah, it’s OK, but but I think I the more interesting thing is going to be what the European Economic Community EU does because we all know.

Du’s been on a privacy tear in the last couple months, a little bit so I’m just trying to see how far they take this mess and I don’t think it’s gonna be.

It’s going to be good to be honest with you and I and I’m dying to see how far Canada takes this mess because they’ve already taken a stance with newspapers.

So it’s gonna get sporting to say the.

Least bump so.

Yeah yeah, interesting to watch.

As we move into 2022, what’s the one thing you’d like to see them build into woo commerce?

And then my second part of that question is, does woo commerce need a WordPress competitor in the space to make it improve itself more?

Let’s see on the 1st part.

Umm, nothing really.

I, I guess kind of going back to what we were talking about it I I’m I’m more curious to just to watch how woo brings full site editor and blocks into core more.

This is.

And like I said, you know it’s it is going to be a time.

Over time, but I I think that will be the most intriguing thing because you know, it’s like inevitable.

So how do they do it?

Because I obviously have no reason as far as competition.

You know I’m saying all for it.

You know it’s it’s like, you know I’ve I’ve had a couple competitors reach out.

I’ve had a couple 1 competitor to be very nasty to me too, but

It’s you know whether.

Whether that will drive more innovation, it’s it’s a challenge ’cause I know that in the past few years there was a few and I, you know I’m not even I.

I don’t really want to name them, but I they’re not even coming to mine that have entered this space and they’ve you know they’ve talked to me and I’ve had candid talks.

With them and they you know they’ve really struggled.

To get into the space, I mean and some of them I don’t hear about.

I’m thinking there probably still exists, but obviously has still been somewhat of a struggle.

I I, I think that.

Yeah, I mean I’m.

I’m all four options, you know, and you know the the fact that I focus on mukama.

Versus is not because it’s like.

I think it should be the only thing in the world on WordPress.

It’s just because of I’ve been in touch and worked with it and been part of it for many many years so.

Yeah, I I.

I think it’s.

Cool, I know there’s that one come out that a lot of people are.

Been talking about not a lot of people, but you know I hear more people.

What’s it called lemonade?

Do you know what?

I’m talking about.

Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard I’ve heard of it, yeah?

And it’s it’s and it’s digital downloads.

I believe it’s specifically digital downloads, as I recall.

I’m hoping that.

Easy digital downloads.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

So I’m not.

I’m not, you know if I’m wrong about lemonade, I don’t know if it’s lemonade stand or anyway, I’m, I’m sorry that I’m mutilating their name, but I know that there’s several people that have been excited about it because they said, oh, here’s A is.

Here is an option.

And you know, in some way or other.

And yeah, I’m, I’m like, you know it’s it’s I.

I don’t know if it’s you know some people say it’s it’s gotta be done well.

It’s easier to said than done you know.

I mean we can all say yeah to make competition.

And make the growth in the industry solid.

This has got to happen, but when?

What’s the old saying when the rubber hits the highway or whatever?

It’s like, these people have some of them have faced challenges.

Doing this and and trying to break into it so it’s obviously not the easiest task that I would like to say.

Yeah, I encourage, encourage it.

I think it would be great, but on the other hand.

And you know, I’m not going to say why aren’t people doing it?

Because there’s probably a lot of people maybe thinking they could do it, but they think, wow, you know, is this going to work?

Is this going to play out so it’s easy to say we want it?

It’s another thing, does it have somebody actually do it?

And be successful at it.

Yeah, it it’s so true.

So one is it’s not easy to build an E commerce platform from bottom top.

I mean I themes tried it, they sold that product off to Ninja forms and it was called Ninja Shop.

And it’s it’s basically a dead platform and it’s so hard.

And the problem is I think a lot reason a lot of people go to Lu honestly is cost.

I mean, yes, there’s a development cost, but here’s your problem.

If you go to Shopify and I think Robbie Adair and one of your guests alluded to it on uh on one of your recent podcasts and said.

Yeah, Zack and Robbie baran.

Robbie, yeah you, you know where this conversation going?

And said if you start changing your payment processing, Shopify just charges you more money and boosts up your plan well before you’re at.

It you know you’re at this $150 a month and they say, oh, you can get started for 1999.

Sure you can with nothing.

So the this problem with all these alternative platforms is you either pay upfront for wood development or you pay on the back end for paint shop.

Fight to get what you.

Want right, right exactly yeah and this.

It’s really apples and oranges, you know, so it it is and it’s you know.

Yep yeah edit.

I’m obviously you know one works better for the other for a lot of different people.

So yeah, I think it’s.

Yeah, I think it’s.

You know it it I, I could, would never say never never it will happen or it won’t happen but I think you know with the growth of e-commerce there’s there’s.

It seems obvious that there would be some that would try to find some unique ways to, you know, inch themselves into grabbing some of the market.

And it’s a big market so.

You know, it’s like, why do?

Why is there another form plug-in coming out?

Why is there another CEO plugging coming out?

Because it’s a huge market and people are determined to grab a a chunk of that.

So yeah, and sometimes 1% or 2% can be big dollars. Ask Google that with search right 2% of search markets worth millions of dollars. So that’s what people need to realize, O.

Couple months ago you had the pleasure of going to New York City for state of the word, and you did this amazing.

Do the Woo train clan deal where you got sponsors great sponsors and you went to New York?

You did some dinners?

Uhm, do you regret the experience despite?

The COVID concerns that came out of it.

Uhm, was it worthwhile doing?

Would you do it again?

How do you feel about that?

You know, you know it was.

I don’t regret it at all.

I mean, it was.

It was probably one of the most unique experiences I’ve ever had in ton of tons of different ways.

And it also proved to me how.

Unique and interesting, this community is the WordPress community.

Because just all the things that happened and all the things that kind of played out as far as you know, connections.

And yeah, it it was just it was a phenomenal experience.

I I can’t a lot of it.

I can’t even put into words because I think somebody would actually have to live it.

Do I regret it in the COVID type of way?

You know on how.

In hindsight, yeah, things could have been done differently.

That’s that’s, you know, all I can say.

I mean, I was a poster child.

I was on the front of that photo.

So that goes around.

But it’s you.

Know it happened.

The big splurge or splurge?

I shouldn’t even use that word.

The big you know when it happened in hit the roof.

In New York was while we were there, and that’s not an excuse, but it’s.

Yeah, I I, I think that could have been.

Done differently and I you know if anybody wants to say you know who’s to blame, I don’t know if there’s really anybody specifically to blame, but in hindsight, yeah, I wish it would have been done differently if now if I was asked to do this again.

I tell Adele file ever.

Stepped foot on the train again.

To tell you the truth for multiple nights.

It it was.

It was an experience.

Let me tell you that and there was a.

Lot of fun to it.

I mean, I’ve.

However, very few podcasters can say they did a podcast on the trade, so I can you know, maybe that’s a buxomly seek for podcasters or something, but.

I I doubt that the.

It was.

It was a very exhausting.

Experience, it was very non stop for me for eight days.

Yeah, yeah.

And it’s one of those things that you say.

Well, no, you know I probably won’t do something exactly like that again, except with the way my brain works, I could always come up with something else creative.

I guess there’s always ships or something, I don’t know, but I.

I I wouldn’t do that exact same thing, probably again around the travel accommodations, just because it it was very exhaustive.

Yeah, it was hard I I’ve done.

I think I’ve told you I’ve done train travel where I’ve gone from Vancouver to Toronto, which is the Canadian.

And it’s a it’s a beautiful run through the Rockies and what I’ve always done this phone out to Vancouver and taking the train back.

I’ve never done it both ways, ’cause and I love train travel.

And by the way, I can’t get away without doing this.

We we have to mention our different Mr Jeff Chandler and do the woo for Jeff.

We’re talking about trains or.

Yeah, I think I think Jeff would.


Shoot the both of us.

But you know, and and Jeff would.

I mean, he would love that and the the the adventure of it.

It was like.

You know there there is, there’s there was a lot of things I, you know the sleeping was a challenge for me.

I got through it.

You know I’m not like you know that didn’t destroy the whole thing, because every moment I was awake.

During the day was phenomenal, so it’s just, you know, it just was a little bit challenging around that way, and you know, for me, that was me.

I’ve I met another WordPress person coincidentally on the same.

Not only on the same train, but in the same car as me and she does this all the time and she loves doing it.

I know other people that have done it and they you know they’ll travel and then they’ll get off and stay overnight in hotels too.

They kind of, you know, break it up.

Yeah, they break it up.

Me thinking, yeah, so there’s a lot of different ways to do it.

Me, I thought of this thing, you know, like three weeks before state of the.

Word and I pulled together this crazy idea and just did it, not really knowing every aspect of it, how it would you know the experience would be, but it was.

It was.

Priceless and a lot.

Always no, no I I I would agree with it was amazing journey.

It was fun to watch it from afar.

It was enjoyable, I think, stated a word and we’ve talked about this since I have never seen Matt as so energized as I did in stated a word that he was.

Energized past belief.

This time around, he was a little more personal than I’ve seen him in a in a long time.

I mean, the hardest part is the poor guy goes to a word camp and he gets pounced on every time.

It’s and I I’ve had the pleasure meeting Matt in Toronto many many years ago.

And uhm, what I remember from that experience was the after party after the official event was more fun.

Getting to know Matt than the official event.

But that’s and I think he he just he was good.

I mean he was really good and it’s been a challenging year and I think he’s.

Held the committee held it together pretty well, to be honest.

Yeah, he was certainly in his element.

Yeah he was.

He was enjoying the.

Smaller group in the conversations and I think just being able to kind of talk with some WordPress people a little bit more on a more personal level.

Yep, and so two more things I want to get into before we wrap up and I I’m sure they’re going to cause a little bit of controversy.

And people are gonna look at me.

Oh yes guys.

All people are going to look at me and say.

Said why again?

So the first one is this whole discussion should open source people be paid and we all know what’s been going on in the post status slack around that discussion for the last couple of weeks and we all know outside of the word press space, what’s gone on with log 4 J.

The whole server hacking side and open source, and now there’s big people like Microsoft and Google. Having that discussion with EU.

S government what’s your?

What’s your feelings on that?

Bob, do you?

Have any that want to share?

You know it, it’s kind of a.

It’s it’s more of a broad general sense about how I feel about it.

You know, I think there’s a lot of.

Valid concern, I mean people.


Yeah, you know.

It it it totally?

Makes sense, I was telling somebody.

Here’s here’s a deal and this happens.

This is not like unique to WordPress or unique to probably even open source.

It’s probably just society in general, but The thing is that whenever something like this starts to raise its head in a community.

There are some very.

Smart people that come in and put out some really hard thinking.

Well thought ideas down they say hey this is that but when people start putting all those ideas down then you’ve got this fringe group that has to pull out all the little details.

And they make the drama so so they they are.

These like little echo chambers of oh.

You said this well, what does this mean?

And then their little group all discusses it and then it becomes, you know, the so-called drama.

So, and that it’s hard you can’t get away from that.

But it’s a shame sometimes ’cause some of this conversation.

Could really result in some, you know some.

Some valid ways of doing this down the road, but if only those people would say OK, let’s let the thinkers kind of think about this.

Let’s get to a point, but it gets to the point where everybody has an opinion and it just becomes blown up.

And then you know, yeah, you have all this conversation.

And everybody arguing and and it’s it’s the community.

And yeah, the community should be involved with it.

And there’s that all makes sense.

But it’s like let some of these people really work this through the people that are very genuinely.

Be serious about it, and they’re not doing this or getting involved with this just to get involved with it and be part of the so called controversy.

Yeah, I I would agree with the one hundred 100% and then the second thing I wanted to touch about and you’ve sort of hit on it already.

Is the WordPress community and listeners of this show know I’ve been on a community tear for months and it?

It kind of started back when Paul Lacy and I sat down about four or five months ago and we talked about acquisitions and that turned into a community discussion.

Then I was privileged and pleased to have a discussion with Brian Gardner that we were talking about the future word press and that turned into a community.

Scussion and then in the midst of all this, I’ve kind of taken on Co admin duties to a LinkedIn group with Courtney Robertson.

And that’s turned into about community and Bob.

Frankly, you’re all about community as well.

So how do you feel better community and where we stand right now?

You know, I.

Think what we gotta really look at is as much as we want to cohesively pull together the community.

We sometimes I think we say that and then we think well have.

We even defined, but the community is, you know, as a Community, this group.

I mean, we were talking about this before the show is, you know, and I talked about this with Andrea Middleton like I bet like eight years ago we were talking about the Community and we were talking about.

All the sub.

Sectors of the community.

’cause you have the word press community, then yeah, almost a community of naysayers.

And then you have the community around products you have the community around influence.

Answers and all of them have little unwritten rules of what they believe their community and how they kind of run their little community.

It’s not like some.

Formal, whatever, but it’s it’s unspoken and so.

All of that.

Stuff mingles in the bigger community and we look at it.

We think oh it’s all segmented.

It’s all crazy.

Well, it’s the world.

It’s kind of like you know we were kind of a microcosm of the actual world where you’ve got all these people in there doing it and I think.

What my my how I’ve always approached the WordPress community is I do my thing.

I probably touch a lot of of these different communities in different ways.

Some of them I may be involved with more or more or less within WordPress, but I organically have my own.

Beliefs my own.

This is what I I think of the community.

This is what I think of the people.

This is what I think of everything around it.

And I do the best I can myself to generate whatever I can.

Feelings and and goodness and thoughts around it as I can.

And that’s really the most I think all of us can do.

And and we’re going to collectively.

And we have already started to kind of attract each other.

You know to certain segments of the community and it is going.

To be a little.

Broken up in that sense, but if.

You know, I think there’s more and.

More if we.

Really look at the big picture.

There’s a lot of people.

That you know, oh.

You know, I, I’m tired of this I’m tired of WordPress this but when you start asking them about WordPress well I love WordPress.

And I love parts of the community, so you know, there’s there.

There’s a lot going on, and I think that we just I.

I think it’s you know if we step back and we say, well, this community is really screwed up.

You know, if you just look at other things going on other communities.

However, I think WordPress is actually pretty pretty solid as a community compared to a lot of you know other.

Communities non technical, you know whatever that I see and I I think there’s a lot of valuable people in there.

And yeah, you got the naysayers.

You got the big mouths.

You got the egos, you got everything else.

Just like any other normal.

No, I I would agree with him.

There’s always there’s always going to be a few naysayers or a few people that just take the opposite track sometimes, and I think that’s just the reality of it all.

Oh yeah.

I mean, people are human, but I think what we need to do is honestly keep building the community with where the majority wants to go.

And we’ll keep going.

And and I’ve said this to you and several other people.

Let’s Start Stop blaming the issues on the table and start to look at the people involved and say that’s where the issues are.

Not the fact that we have multiple issues of everything from Gutenberg to page builders to FC.

Be to react to the API.

I mean, there’s always going to be issues or it’s how we deal with those issues.

And to me that’s the bigger thing.

The only thing I have to tell you and I I said this in your.

State of the word.

Uh, kind of look back at is the only thing that disappointed me was the only thing that got touched on in state that the word was five for the future, which I think a lot of us do.

And I think personally I think there should have been a broader scope on the Community, but that’s, you know, just my personal opinion at that point.

Yeah, and and it’s tough to think of.

You know when you think of all the different stuff I described, all these communities for any leadership in the at any level to really try to.

Put a ton of effort in it because so much of it is, it’s it can’t fall on one person, handful person, or even a company you know.

It’s just so huge and this this, this community.

I mean, however you define it, except if you have a little tiny community hang out in.

It’s huge, it’s huge and and it’s and I think that’s that’s a cool part of it too.

I I like it ’cause.

I like diverse opinions.

I like you know, and you know I, I listen to who I want to listen to and if somebody bugs me, I’d tune them out.

You know I don’t say oh you don’t belong in this community, I just don’t.

Settle into what they’re saying and focus on it.

Yeah, and I know other people don’t know the resources that community brings and I’ll give you an example.

That last week I posted something from Hero Press in a LinkedIn group and somebody I know is very prominent on LinkedIn and not as much on Twitter.

Came back to me and said.

I haven’t heard of Hero Press before, and I mean we all know Topher and Kate do an amazing job up there and and I was just so shocked to say you’ve been around Pro WordPress.

This song and you haven’t heard about Hero press like it was.

I don’t know it it just caught me off guard, so that’s how big our community is.

Sometimes people don’t know what’s being done or how it’s being done.

That is a big issue to Franklin.

And you know, for me, my goal for this year for do the Woo is awareness.

Bring in bringing awareness to more woo commerce people and I so get this.

I mean I, I have a couple people that joke around with me and say oh I met somebody and they don’t know who Bob WP is I I was amazed I’m like.

Oh come on now.

You know, but you know they it.

It is it’s.

You know it’s awareness is tough for even us that feel like we’ve, you know, been in the community and done a lot of stuff and produces content or whatever.

And Hero Press is a good example of that myself, you know?

Yeah, I and and it when you sit down and I really start.

I’m starting to do some research.

And evaluate this and figure out how can I bring more awareness to do the woo.

It’s it’s a tough Rd.

It’s not simple, and it’s like you said, it’s the massive.

That what we have in this community. And yeah, it’s you know it’s how we get that out. And you know I wish there was some and maybe by the year’s end I’ll have a little insight to.

I might not have the magic bullet, but I will.

You know, maybe have something that I’ve ’cause I.

I plan on talking to some people and and.

Getting into this more and more and maybe a little bit of I’ll have a little bit of enlightening on that or something, but it is.

It’s some, you know.

It is a a huge huge community.

No, I agree with it.

Thanks for joining me today, Bob.

I think if people want more.

About woo commerce and need to check out your Doodle podcast.

It’s kind of my go to source for woo information.

You have a bunch of amazing Cohosts and you know that they add to the show greatly.

If somebody wants get a hold of you.

How’s the best way?

Best way is @dothewoo on Twitter, dothewoo.io . I’m on very active on WordPress Woo commerce and post data slack so you can always DM me there too.

So I’m and my Twitter open DMS so you know yeah, reach out.

I’m always happy to talk.

Thanks Bob.

Thanks for joining me.

Have an amazing day.

Thank you Rob.

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